Moderating Topics

[Steven]

I think the former thread was shut down prematurely and that it reeked of unneccesary censorship.

Did it get personal and critical?

Yes.

As is this subject - to many people. Personal. And Critical. As is this subject to the american youth in general - and teh casteovers from teh baby boomers...... we are a pharmecuticaly inclined nation. Here was a perfect example of that ideal gone wrong, and it got shut down. What a waste of expression and passion.

Until somebody is threatening another in some way, I say let the people speak their american gothy minds.

There are times, when as a moderator, you need to let that pressure cooker cook awhile, because there s usually a let down of sorts afterward, where people's emotions no longer carry such blunt force and exhaustion gives way to simpler logic. There was good potential for this to happen in this thread, as the thread itself was great subject matter.

What Dave was doing, in my book, was shitty to many people besides himself. And - it was worth discussing. Especially because Dave himself started the subject and took it to a public forum for judging eyes.

As for this latest warnign to keep the subject interesting lest it once more be shut down.......

who's definition of "interesting" shall be foundational to your moderator duties as they commence? And please - perhaps a posting of your definition of interesting needs to preface this and any touchy thread.

I'm not trying to be an asshole here.

I'm simply saying - that caution is due on your part as well dear moderators.

Because the entire process - including the tirades - to me - were quite interesting.

Steven

[Brenda Starrr]

Oh, how I love thee, Steven.

[Jarodaka]

I think the former thread was shut down prematurely and that it reeked of unneccesary censorship.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"Unnecessary censorship?" That's just funny.

who's definition of "interesting" shall be foundational to your moderator duties as they commence?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mine.

*sigh* FWIW, I think the topic did have interesting points to be made. Efforts would have been made in the past to delete or even edit the posts to make the conversation seem more 'friendly.' You think that thread was edited? Screw you, buddy, there were some really elegant and amazing edits Troy used to pull off, but he could get away with it. I dont' have the time, inclination, or sway to do such. Rather than untangle the nasty mess, the thread was closed.

Just because it took a couple days for somebody to have the balls to re-start the topic and focus on the interesting aspects (thanks, Zhukov), don't throw around B.S. accusations of 'censorship' because a thread was closed. Goddamn, I didn't even bother to *delete* the topic, which has been done plenty of times in the past as well.

BTW, meta-discussions about moderation are 1) not interesting and 2) off-topic.

[Guest Megalicious]

Did it get personal and critical?

Yes.

Things can be personal and critical without personaly attacking someone. And that is exactly what direction the original thread took. Not only attacking Dave, but Dave attacking other ppl ect. I think what the mister is trying to say is ... play nice .. or don't play at all, because all it does it create a big headache for the mods who have more to do with there time then playing mommy and daddy to ppl who can't give and or take positive Criticisms.

What Dave was doing, in my book, was shitty to many people besides himself.  And - it was worth discussing.  Especially because Dave himself started the subject and took it to a public forum for judging eyes.

Yes when someone takes something public they are open to all kinds of oppinons, views and advice. However, the way some ppl handle themselfs was just as imature and unnnesary as the original post. It all seems so self satisfying to be so quick to judge and throw out comments that will only have a negaitive effect in the long run. Instead of thinking shit through and giving some positive feedback to a fucked up situation.

[Steven]

"Unnecessary censorship?"  That's just funny.

Mine.

*sigh* FWIW, I think the topic did have interesting points to be made.  Efforts would have been made in the past to delete or even edit the posts to make the conversation seem more 'friendly.'  You think that thread was edited?  Screw you, buddy, there were some really elegant and amazing edits Troy used to pull off, but he could get away with it.  I dont' have the time, inclination, or sway to do such.  Rather than untangle the nasty mess, the thread was closed.

Just because it took a couple days for somebody to have the balls to re-start the topic and focus on the interesting aspects (thanks, Zhukov), don't throw around B.S. accusations of 'censorship' because a thread was closed.  Goddamn, I didn't even bother to *delete* the topic, which has been done plenty of times in the past as well.

BTW, meta-discussions about moderation are 1) not interesting and 2) off-topic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you took this personal dude.

you said "screw you" and wrote back in a condescending style.

because I dont like your style of editing, which to me, equates to censorship, which in turn equates to fear, which in turn equates to control issues.

was this response of yours that you just wrote friendly?

professional?

edifying?

I dont lose sleep over this stuff dude - you don't have what it takes to throw bombs at me - but I also calls them as I sees them - and I beleive that you simply shot something down that you were ill prepared to handle and then got pissed when questioned on it. Therefore you have no accoutability? Is this the fruit of being a Moderator?

Screw me. Hmmmm...... in effect - you screwed US - all of us.

Had you truly untangled a nasty mess - it would not have sought to resurface here once again, as it obviously has, as it obviously has some meaning to people.

Not bothering to delete something does not win you kudos in my book.

thats like telling someone "all I did was poke you in hte eye - your lucky I didint kick you in the nuts"

And you were right - Troy was great.

perhaps there is a lesson to be learned there?????

Steven

[Steven]

Things can be personal and critical without personaly attacking someone.  And that is exactly what direction the original thread took.  Not only attacking Dave, but Dave attacking other ppl ect.  I think what the mister is trying to say is ... play nice .. or don't play at all, because all it does it create a big headache for the mods who have more to do with there time then playing mommy and daddy to ppl who can't give and or take positive Criticisms. 

Yes when someone  takes something public they are open to all kinds of oppinons, views and advice.  However, the way some ppl handle themselfs was just as imature and unnnesary as the original post.  It all seems so self satisfying to be so quick to judge and throw out comments that will only have a negaitive effect in the long run. Instead of thinking shit through and giving some positive feedback to a fucked up situation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Meg.... I dig you.

And it sounds like you are defending a friend, and thats ok.

But I'm not going after your friend.

I'm going after an ideal that I think should be called into question.

And I'm pressing for more accountability.

Thats all.

and I stitll dig you.

Steven

[honeymustard02]

Steven can you be my personal rep???? Lol I love reading your posts. You'd make me seem really smart.

[Msterbeau]

And I'm pressing for more accountability.

Thats all.

Steven,

I'm going to disagree with you on this one. The nasty personal attacks were already underway and despite TA's warnings you could see that they were only going to continue. Up until the point that FarrIL chimed in, it was heated but people were staying on topic. Thereafter, it went rapidly downhill. I for one, also appreciate that Jerod left the thread up. I didn't check in on it after reading Dave's initial post so I'm glad to have the opportunity to read everything and think on it. Left open, I might have responded more angrily then I did here. The discussion was no longer interesting... it was getting mean-spirited and I doubt that was going to change. Closing the thread sent the messege that it was time for people to evaluate what they were posting and stay on topic. Hopefully this thread and any others related to it will stay focused.

[torn asunder]

in my view, things were fine until they degraded into name-calling and direct insults. there is no room in intelligent discussions or heated debates for that, and since people continued to do so after repeated warnings not to i think locking the thread was a great move. as was mentioned, it was a good way to have people take a step back & reevaluate their behavior, without being overly heavy-handed by deleting posts, or the entire thread. the warning in the beginning of this thread was just to remind people to play nice, and hopefully, this time they will. i, too, thought there were/are a lot of interesting things to be discussed, and i'd like to participate in it. condemn someone for there choices/actions? fine, if you can do it without inusulting them - call someone a jerk/asshole/idiot? restrict... warnings abound regarding this issue, and as jarod posted already in this thread, "EVERYONE is hereby warned" - shouldn't be too hard to understand...

now, i found myself quite curious about how pretending to be suicidal would give a clinic good reason to give a pain script!? anti-depressants, sure, but vicoden? i just don't get it... :erm

[Guest Megalicious]

Meg.... I dig you.

And it sounds like you are defending a friend, and thats ok.

But I'm not going after your friend.

I'm going after an ideal that I think should be called into question.

And I'm pressing for more accountability.

Thats all.

and I stitll dig you.

Steven

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This has nothing to do with deffending anyone, it has to do with some points that I happend to dissagree with in your original post. Yah ... it personal and critical .. but it seems you cant do that without ppl actting like children and thats just the bottom line.

Not you personal Steven, I read your post and I like them, you don't ever come across in a negative manner.

But there is the grey area that leaves people to interpret things that other people are thinking and feeling, with someone that is having a bad day or is emotional senstive that can be so negative Im sure. We've all had a person take our post out of text, feeling affended/pissed when you know that wasnt your intention.

THIS IS OFF TOPIC!!!!! =)

As for Zhouk lol- I wounder myself .... hmmm? Now in the hospitals that I've been sometimes will give you shit just to make you shut up. However Vicoden is unlikely lol ...

2. What kind of health care place gives out barbituates for mental health issues?

You would be surpized.... I mean all I had to do with my current RX was send an email... take it in mind its not for any kind of barb .. but .. I was just amazed of how easy it was and to be honest really scared.

[Jarodaka]

Part II of Dollar Dave's Vicodin trip can be discussed here.

Sorry to those whose posts are about both topics, but they had to go in one or the other!

[Steven]

here's my quick point of view because I'm at work:

yes - it got personal, critical, and off topic.

Question: WHY?

what in the world was there about this thread started by DD, that caused so many people to start losing it?

Why the uproar? Why the personal attacks? Why such passion?

Because....I beleive at least.....that this thread and scenario hits close to home for many people.

it's uncomfortable

disturbing

ugly.

etc.

I'm a people watcher.

I was watching people come unglued on this topic, I was watching people go after each other, I was watching what to me - was a very interesting end result. So many of these same people are on meds, have gotten off meds, have or do currently struggle with addictions, so for me, we were very much ON TOPIC, as this is the life of the addict - and this frustration and anger and repulsiveness is also very much a part of the life of the addict.

And I feel that given time, it could have very well led into another direction. Perhaps I'm wrong. But I still would not have shut down the thread, at least not at this stage.

For you in leadership (Mods): a strong armed response in a hostile crowd does not always (think seldom) equate to decency and order in the end, and warning everyone to back off - in effect fueled the fire.

Even DD - he had something to learn here, but he instead chose to tantrum after revealing himself and then not liking the results iof what he created and then he himself demanded that the Moderators shut it down.

And Dave got paid for his demand didint he?

They gave him what he wanted.

Sort of like with the Vicodin.

Gimmee.

Gimmeee.

Giiiimmmmmeeee.

Again I ask WHY? Passion + Passion = what exactly?

You leaders, perhaps you can do what teachers often do in a noisy classroom full of children when they need their attention:

...............................whisper.

figurative obviously, but you get it. Watch the crowd dynamic, re-assign, re-align, re-direct, use your gifts to steer back to subject. Its a hard thign to do, but a worthwhile endevour. And everyone learns from it.

Our own Jerod got hot at me for questioning his methods, so he gave me a nice "screw you" as opposed to the cool responses I've gotten from several of you, like Meg, and Mark, and Honey and Brenda my one true love.

That tells me me alot. He too, got sucked into the vortex.

you people can question me on anything.

and I'll question anyone - on anything.

But we need to be accountable to one another.

And I'm not mad that some of you disagree, as I disagree with your disagreements. But I'll never say "screw you", because if I do, then I just gave my power away didint I??????? I let you get me mad, instead of letting you cause me to ponder.

Gotta go now. This has been an interesting ride.

Steven

[Jarodaka]

Who is this "Jerod" person people keep talking about?

[Rayne]

I dont' have the time, inclination, or sway to do such.  Rather than untangle the nasty mess, the thread was closed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Isn't that your job as a moderator? I worked for 5 years doing online tech support and moderation of both public message boards and public chats of a major internet provider.

... It was my job to weed through post by post and sort the mess out ... if I hadn't, I wouldn't have been doing my job as a moderator. A lot of times I'd have well over 2000 posts to sort through (I told you, MAJOR internet provider) just in one thread. It took time, it took patience and it took ability.

It wouldn't have been right of me to take the job if I couldn't do it. There was time I needed time off and they'd find someone else to do it for the time being (I was on maternity leave a few times for a couple months at a time).

No, it wasn't a paying job ... unless you count the free service and the company perks. My job was discontinued in June of 2005 when they began to hire an outside company to do it for them ... and I miss it, a lot.

Not trying to get personal here and no disrespect meant.

[Jarodaka]

To be blunt, no, it's not my job to sort out an 'unglued mess'. To be even more blunt, there's lots that I should doing that I'm not. The overarching goal is to get people to 'play nice.' Since we don't have any sort of customs and practices book for dgn, so to speak, the resulting 'disciplinary' action is different every time. In this case, it was a thread closing.

You make an interesting point, Rayne. Moderating a board *is* a full-time job, or, at least, can easily become one. None of us are getting paid for it, though.

EDIT: read that wrong. So, you *didn't* get paid for your work? I'm not even getting perks...

[Guest Megalicious]

Question:  WHY?

what in the world was there about this thread started by DD, that caused so many people to start losing it?

Why the uproar?  Why the personal attacks?  Why such passion?

Because....I beleive at least.....that this thread and scenario hits close to home for many people.

it's uncomfortable

disturbing

ugly.

etc.

Thats kind of my point Steven, It was uncomfortable,disturbing and ugly, however adding to it is not a solution, it was only breeding negativity... which I see no need for. We are all friends here, we come here to share not to be judged and personal attacked. You can still get your point across in the natural debate of things. Be blunt and honest .. that I agree with, that I have no problem with. But when people start ripping eachother apart NO good can come from that.

I'm a people watcher.

I was watching people come unglued on this topic, I was watching people go after each other, I was watching what to me - was a very interesting end result.

We are here to support one another, not to watch people come unglued. I'm sorry but I don't see people cuting eachother down as entertainment. It just causes people to get deffensive and hurt. Where is the productive, positive side of that? Where does that help ANYONE on the board, tell me where is it productive ?

Even DD - he had something to learn here, but he instead chose to tantrum after revealing himself and then not liking the results iof what he created and then he himself demanded that the Moderators shut it down.

I don't think he expected everyone to be so negaitive, as much as I read and think to myself how awful it is .. I believe he did it for one of two reasons.

1. He needed attention. People that are attention whores don't care if the attention is negative or positive as long as they have got your attention.

2. I believe this may have scared him, this little "hospital" situation, but some ppl dont know how to just come out and ask for help. This is DD cry for help, his way of allowing himself to realize he has a problem, and to reach out for support for ppl he believes to be non-judgemental, honest ppl. Friends. And what did he get .. a bunch of ppl shiting on him.

As much as I know he started the thread ..... posting about personal things, everyone just seem to give him nothing positive to go on. So he becomes deffensive and lashes out... which just leaves everyone upset in the long run.

And Dave got paid for his demand didint he?

I don't think so, I could be wrong. I think the only thing that happen to Dave was after reading it .. he even felt worse, life can be so much more of stuggle when you are depressed enough to stay high on Vicotin all the time. Im not saying its an excuse, but its there, its real, and it hurts. And just dropping bomb after bomb on him wasn't helping any. Not to mention that the it got alot of other ppl all up in arms about it. Leaving everyone upset in one way or another.

you people can question me on anything.

and I'll question anyone - on anything.

Kudos to that my friend

[torn asunder]

Even DD - he had something to learn here, but he instead chose to tantrum after revealing himself and then not liking the results iof what he created and then he himself demanded that the Moderators shut it down.

if anyone was actually paying attention, dave was doing quite well at *not* going off on anyone, until he was directly insulted... i think throughout the beginning of the thread, he showed ample restraint in the face of such overwhelming negativity...

we all need to remember to be respectful of others while making our thoughts and opinions known.you want to condemn? condemn an action, not the person... nobody appreciates/is receptive to that. i would hope/think that people would realize that, but apparently not, even when it's brought to their attention.

[Hellion]

if anyone was actually paying attention, dave was doing quite well at *not* going off on anyone, until he was directly insulted... i think throughout the beginning of the thread, he showed ample restraint in the face of such overwhelming negativity...

we all need to remember to be respectful of others while making our thoughts and opinions known.you want to condemn? condemn an action, not the person... nobody appreciates/is receptive to that. i would hope/think that people would realize that, but apparently not, even when it's brought to their attention.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:cheerful That was so very well said,you are very right Torn.I have always liked your way of saying things.

[Shade Everdark]

What a little hornet's nest.

I actually feel a small measure of responsibility for this whole mess getting started--I believe I was the first one to post recriminations against Dave's actions.

On the other hand, I know that posts regarding his actions in the past have not been well-received by others, and I think that's the core issue. His posts have a pattern of showing little concern for others, particularly in his skewed ideas towards women, and I think that's what bothers a lot of people.

He has the right to say what he pleases here; I'd like to think we, barring a few mistakes, make this place as welcoming as possible. On the other hand, his thread seemed, for many, to be the last degree to make the cauldron boil over. On the other hand, we're under no similar obligation to refrain from telling him what we think of his actions, as long as it doesn't degenerate into discourtesy or name-calling, which unfortunately, many people were goaded to do by their passionate feelings about this subject.

It's not a pretty one, this subject, and it's been brewing a long time. At the same time we're struggling to find our proper places of responsbibility, even-handedness, and laissez-faire in regards to situations like these, he needs to take responsbility for who he is, what he's become, and what he's done. That's never easy, I know, but they are still choices he's made.

I feel sympathy for the plight he's in. I don't claim to know the first thing about the kind of difficulty that entails--my biggest addiction (other than mabye self-deprecation) is cigarettes, so there you go. On the other hand, I'm not inclined to feel any compassion towards him, because of his wilfull attempts to pull one over on society, and for the way he chooses to view other people.

That's about what this whole 'argument' boils down to, for me. I welcome your thoughts.

[Guest Megalicious]

What a little hornet's nest.

I actually feel a small measure of responsibility for this whole mess getting started--I believe I was the first one to post recriminations against Dave's actions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You have nothing to feel reponsible for Shade... there is a difference between this ...

Perhaps it would serve you better to seek treatment for your substance abuse, instead of wasting taxpayer money and insulting those who actually have mental problems?

and this ....

maybe it's idiots like you that arent only fucking me over with taxes this year but everyone else as well. Idiots like you are jipping us out of money ect ect ... 

and then there are post like this that are ....

Dave I hope you listen to the people in this thread who care about you and their words of caution. The lengths you were willing to go to say you have a serious problem. It’s not funny and if you don’t do something about it, it might kill you.

Quick, to the point, blut, honest, and all without personal attacking anyone ... or making someone feel like shit ..

(not to mention the woman that wrote it is awesome )

[phee]

One thing to keep in mind here (and yes some people do ask for help in this passive aggressive way) Is the DD, didn't ask for help.... he bragged about it... He basically said to all of us "ain't it cool?" and people reacted... some felt sorry for him, others (myself included) thought that doing, and then bragging about this was not something to feel sympathy for...

just saying

[Guest Megalicious]

One thing to keep in mind here (and yes some people do ask for help in this passive aggressive way) Is the DD, didn't ask for help.... he bragged about it... He basically said to all of us "ain't it cool?" and people reacted... some felt sorry for him, others (myself included) thought that doing, and then bragging about this was not something to feel sympathy for...

just saying

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just the fact that he was proud of it screams I NEED HELP. In most cases I lack empathy but in this case .. I can't say I do .. it makes me sad.

[Steven]

Meg, just wanted to clarify a few things because I see that the way I posted mislead you.....

my people watching, and the fact that I found all of this uproar interesting, was not (is not) intended to titilate me for entertainments sake.

I find these things interesting, because I have a tendency to look between the lines, beyond the obvious, and/or pay attention to what is not said - in order to grasp at the truth.

And this is why i was watching the topic and the flare ups. I was (am) searching for something. This also applies to ME by the way. There have been many times when I read one of my old posts and had to take stock in where my head was at because I was bothered by it.

Awareness - is the goal here I'm talking about. We all need it. We all need to dig a little deeper into what motivates the actions that we take, the words that we use, the tone that we choose. There is much good that can come from that. But sometimes the road to that realization is paved with fuck ups. And that's what I meant. I hope that helps you understand why I think the way I do. My road to this point in my life is paved with a million fuck ups babe, some very tragic, and many that I cannot go back and change. There can be value in these thigns though -if you'll allow yourself to grow from it. So as crazy as it sounds, i saw potential in all of this mess. And I hate to see potential stifled. And if 2 out of 100 get it, I'm willing to pay that price.

But that's just me.....

As for Dave being "nice" until he was directly insulted - he seemed to directly insult quite a few people by his overt flippancy in his original post. He gave no thought to that prior to posting. And yoru right Meg - he wanted to be heard. But he did not want to say help me. At least he does not want to say it yet. I hope he learns those words. They are painful to say by the way, and they take courage. Jesse (help me thread) has been a good example of that lately and I am very proud of her.

Dave had/has choices as we all do. He chose to bail when it got uncomfortable. Yes he was attacked - but he opened that door rather irresponsibly, and the attack was the end result of what he himself chose to create. Addiction does not create special circumstances for Dave.

As for nothing positve being given to Dave - well....that's up to Dave to place value in what he will. He could have chosen to see value in the fact that a community of people see a radical problem. He could have chosen to see value in the fact that perhaps his ethics need review. He could have seen value in the fact that this sort of thing matters to people, that it's NOT ok to pull the stuff that he does. Re-direction, is valuable.

And in closing- he can choose to see value yet in all of this DD dialogue. He can choose to learn from it. If he wants to.

And Torn Asunder - for me - its difficult to truly seperate the actions from the person. A man's heart (values or lack thereof) will lead him where it will, manifested by his actions. People reserve the right to call it what it is. Dave's actions will condemn him only until he becomes something new - because then his actions will take a decidely different turn. Dave has the same abilities that I or any other addict that I've known that has decided to kick. Your an addict until your done with it, thats a hard bottom line truth. And in the meantime, while you live the life of an addict - you become what you do. People called me an asshole and a theif and a liar and a user during my addict years. All of it - was true. All of it. Until I changed it. First I had to own it.

DAVE - change it.

peace.

Steven

[Guest Megalicious]

Awareness - is the goal here I'm talking about.  We all need it.  We all need to dig a little deeper into what motivates the actions that we take, the words that we use, the tone that we choose.  There is much good that can come from that.  But sometimes the road to that realization is paved with fuck ups.  And that's what I meant.  I hope that helps you understand why I think the way I do.  My road to this point in my life is paved with a million fuck ups babe, some very tragic, and many that I cannot go back and change.  There can be value in these thigns though -if you'll allow yourself to grow from it.  So as crazy as it sounds, i saw potential in all of this mess.  And I hate to see potential stifled.  And if 2 out of 100 get it, I'm willing to pay that price.

But that's just me.....

That is just the thing Steven, not everyone can think like you, share your thoughts, or learn as you have. Everyone is different, it's a matter of getting your point across and or making a person aware of things in a positive way, of being productive and helpful. Instead of enraged and saying things our of anger just to take a stab at someone.

I know your not like that, there is nothing wrong with a healthy and well thought out debate, but when it comes to personal blows, of course the Mods have every right to step in, thats what Mods do, the keep the peace on the board. It doesnt matter if it has potential .. its doing damage to people. It brings nothing but (not to sound all hippie and shit but keep in mind Im 25% hippie lol) bad vibes and bitterness.

  I hope he learns those words.

You and me both Steven. =(

Dave had/has choices as we all do.  He chose to bail when it got uncomfortable.  .

To bail out when it got uncomfortable? I think UNCOMFORTABLE IS A HUGE UNDERSTATEMENT. I would have probably done the same thing to give the current circumstances (emotional) that I am under, does this make me less of a person? Hell no, if anything it makes me stronger due to the fact that I have removed myself from such a negative siutation, instead taking it out myself .. or on someone else. Why would I just stay somewhere/do something that was upseting to me ? I could see if the advice was dirrect and objective critisism.. but in this case it was just ppl speaking in anger and or lashing out though Dave post my have been offensive .. two wrongs dont make a right ...

Your an addict until your done with it, thats a hard bottom line truth.  And in the meantime, while you live the life of an addict - you become what you do. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well put Steven.

[Steven]

That is just the thing Steven, not everyone can think like you, share your thoughts, or learn as you have. Everyone is different, it's a matter of getting your point across and or making a person aware of things in a positive way, of being productive and helpful. Instead of enraged and saying things our of anger just to take a stab at someone.

I know your not like that, there is nothing wrong with a healthy and well thought out debate, but when it comes to personal blows, of course the Mods have every right to step in, thats what Mods do, the keep the peace on the board. It doesnt matter if it has potential .. its doing damage to people. It brings nothing but  (not to sound all hippie and shit but keep in mind Im 25% hippie lol) bad vibes and bitterness.

You and me both Steven. =(

To bail out when it got uncomfortable? I think UNCOMFORTABLE IS A HUGE UNDERSTATEMENT.  I would have probably done the same thing to give the current circumstances (emotional) that I am under, does this make me less of a person? Hell no, if anything it makes me stronger due to the fact that I have removed myself from such a negative siutation, instead taking it out myself .. or on someone else. Why would I just stay somewhere/do something that was upseting to me ? I could see if the advice was dirrect and objective critisism.. but in this case it was just ppl speaking in anger and or lashing out though Dave post my have been offensive .. two wrongs dont make a right ...

Well put Steven.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll make you this promise Meg: that I'll give this a great deal of thought....ok?

Steve