countdown to no-smoking thread

[Nightgaunt]

Ignoring the freedom of exp​ression/government issues for a moment... Why is it that non-smokers were willing to go to their favorite bars and put up with the smoke and support those establishments under less than ideal conditions for them, but smokers won't? Or will you?

I don't think that most of the people who say they won't go to City Club anymore are necessarily boycotting the club. You have to understand that when you're addicted to nicotine, hanging out and drinking without a cigarette is a TERRIFYING prospect. I don't smoke anymore and the thought of going to the club and being in that environment is something I don't think I can handle so soon after quitting. I guess I can see the logic in boycotting the bars in an attempt to hurt their business enough to force the bar owners to lobby for changes, but I doubt that would be effective. So, while I won't be going out to bars/clubs in the foreseeable future, it's not out of vindictiveness toward the "evil" bar owners.

[Msterbeau]

I don't think that most of the people who say they won't go to City Club anymore are necessarily boycotting the club. You have to understand that when you're addicted to nicotine, hanging out and drinking without a cigarette is a TERRIFYING prospect. I don't smoke anymore and the thought of going to the club and being in that environment is something I don't think I can handle so soon after quitting. I guess I can see the logic in boycotting the bars in an attempt to hurt their business enough to force the bar owners to lobby for changes, but I doubt that would be effective. So, while I won't be going out to bars/clubs in the foreseeable future, it's not out of vindictiveness toward the "evil" bar owners.

I like that... Hurt the bar owners and make them lobby for change... instead of doing it themselves.

I understand that the nicotine is addictive and certainly plays a role in people's decisions. That said: People very likely knew cigarettes were addictive before they ever started smoking... Time for consequences.

[prick]

I like that... Hurt the bar owners and make them lobby for change... instead of doing it themselves.

I understand that the nicotine is addictive and certainly plays a role in people's decisions. That said: People very likely knew cigarettes were addictive before they ever started smoking... Time for consequences.

True but at 14 and that was 1985 I had no idea how addicting. Alchohol is addicting but most of us are not addicted even tho we drink.

[Hollywood]

This is all I am going to say on the point, because obviously no one is going to be able to change the others' minds.

Here in Canada, we have had this law for a while and honestly... there is no big deal about it. So during the summer you step outside and have a smoke, most people are okay with that. Now yes in the winter it does get cold but some places treat the smokers better then non smokers. Giving them free Hot chocolate or putting up special heating lambs for these people... while non smokers got Jack shit

P.s. I know all you smokers love to smoke.. but seriously, Why not just quit and join our side? Better for your health and well.. smoking is not sexy anymore people. I know this now.

[Nightgaunt]

I like that... Hurt the bar owners and make them lobby for change... instead of doing it themselves.

I understand that the nicotine is addictive and certainly plays a role in people's decisions. That said: People very likely knew cigarettes were addictive before they ever started smoking... Time for consequences.

I didn't say I approved, I just said that I could understand the thinking. What do you mean by "time for consequences"? That I have to go to City Club and be uncomfortable? I'm not following...

[Msterbeau]

True but at 14 and that was 1985 I had no idea how addicting. Alchohol is addicting but most of us are not addicted even tho we drink.

And the reason it's illegal to smoke under 18 is for the exact reason you cite... Young teens don't always think about the consequences. One way or the other, like it or not, you made a poor choice, yes?

Alcohol addiction is different. It's primarily a mental disease/issue, not the substance itself.

[Msterbeau]

I didn't say I approved, I just said that I could understand the thinking. What do you mean by "time for consequences"? That I have to go to City Club and be uncomfortable? I'm not following...

I didn't mean to imply that you approved. My statement was more to the universe...

A person that starts smoking knowing it's both cancerous and addictive will be paying the piper sooner or later. Whether through heath problems or because of something like this where they have to deal with a circumstance because of their choice.

[Nightgaunt]

This is all I am going to say on the point, because obviously no one is going to be able to change the others' minds.

Here in Canada, we have had this law for a while and honestly... there is no big deal about it. So during the summer you step outside and have a smoke, most people are okay with that. Now yes in the winter it does get cold but some places treat the smokers better then non smokers. Giving them free Hot chocolate or putting up special heating lambs for these people... while non smokers got Jack shit

It's my understanding that you won't be permitted to smoke within 100' of a business. No just stepping outside to smoke.

[torn asunder]

It's my understanding that you won't be permitted to smoke within 100' of a business. No just stepping outside to smoke.

yeah, if that's true, it's fucking assinine. gods, i hate people!!

[candyman]

Wow...so what if the smokers want to boycott bars which would in turn hurt the bar owners so that they lobby for change. If they know how to run a business then they should have factored in all the parts and looked at all the results. And in most states, well actually every state, there are really large organizations made up of bar owners, workers, and some patrons that they are supposed to discuss these issues and figure out a way to solve them before they present themselves to the local government. Plus all the people that boycotted bars because of all the smoke...don't they get a little blame too? It was done for their own reasons and so what if you don't agree? The only problem is that even in this economy I don't see any increase in the downward trend when it comes to bars...the ratio of bars closing to bars opening is staying on the same level path it has been on for years on a nationwide level. The one exception though is that it drops quite a few points when smoking bans hit on the graph...it just a few months where the ratio is fucked up and it doesn't recover all the way but it is not exposed because of how they measure things and make the graph far too large.

This is all I am going to say on the point, because obviously no one is going to be able to change the others' minds.

Here in Canada, we have had this law for a while and honestly... there is no big deal about it. So during the summer you step outside and have a smoke, most people are okay with that. Now yes in the winter it does get cold but some places treat the smokers better then non smokers. Giving them free Hot chocolate or putting up special heating lambs for these people... while non smokers got Jack shit

P.s. I know all you smokers love to smoke.. but seriously, Why not just quit and join our side? Better for your health and well.. smoking is not sexy anymore people. I know this now.

In all the places with bans that I have been to in the US they don't treat you well when you have to step outside no matter what the weather is like. Most of the time it is because of the regulation in the ban that dictate how outdoor smoking areas must be setup to be legal. The outdoor smoking areas are usually too expensive or not feasible considering location for bars and such so they just don't do it. For instance the enclosed spaces in Madison must have 2-3 walls, no roof, and cannot contain furniture. Not bad eh? Well, that same "room" may not be connected to the bar and bar workers may not go into the shelter, remember this ban is to help protect them, and considering you may not bring your beer outside...WTF? Shelters may also not be made out of any flammable materials because we all know that cigarettes start fires very quickly. AND the big final straw for this being shit...no heating elements in outdoor smoking areas...so much for being warm in winter.

You ever try to stay warm under a heating lamp in winter? Unless its a fully enclosed room with a roof and a bunch of heating lamps it is NOT going to work. Not to mention the electric bill you get with running those lamp is going to make you shit enough bricks to build a whole new addition to the bar!

Dude...go around and ask smokers if they think it makes them look sexy...you will not get many positive responses. Its called a vice and I like mine. Better for my health? Really? Oh thank you SO much for letting me know I though it was the cure for my herpes! You know I can name alot of things that other people do that are not good for their health. I am sorry to tell all the non-smokers this but...remember to brace yourself here...you will eventually die too! OMFG!

I smoke because I like it. I don't want to come to your side I have made more friend on the smoking deck and I will stay with them. If I want to look sexy I view that as me wearing my work clothes while holding a wrench and a shop towel leaning up against my car. If I want to look cool...well I will be real here I can't make myself look cool. I do healthy things to but in my mind I started dying long before I started smoking yet I still have my fun...maybe if your side had super awesome cookies I would think about coming over there...

Oh yeah one last point...not that I hate you or anything but you made a rookie mistake when you said "why not just quit and join our SIDE". First off smokers are SICK of hearing "why not just quit" and the response I often hear and use is "why not just go and fuck yourself" because people don't like other people judging their vices like that. Second, people continue to divide us into SIDES which just makes things worse...if you don't want opposition then don't keep diving us up into statistics or sideshow acts. Why do smokers tend to get aggressive in these kinds of topics? Maybe because the statement you made is pretty much the verbal equivalent of poking us with pointy sticks while screaming how much better you are than us and how right you are. You are going to die to and up until that day your shit stinks too no matter how much healthy food you pack your colon with. Have a nice say...

[Hellion]

Well said,I guess I'll bring an umbrella,unless that's considered illegal,damn why don't they just make smokes illegal then,and Granmole and her fourty Nazi cronies can suck rusty dildos as well.(sarcasm,LOL)if only George Carlin was still alive I could imagine what he would say.

[TheGimp]

In all the places with bans that I have been to in the US they don't treat you well when you have to step outside no matter what the weather is like. Most of the time it is because of the regulation in the ban that dictate how outdoor smoking areas must be setup to be legal. The outdoor smoking areas are usually too expensive or not feasible considering location for bars and such so they just don't do it. For instance the enclosed spaces in Madison must have 2-3 walls, no roof, and cannot contain furniture. Not bad eh? Well, that same "room" may not be connected to the bar and bar workers may not go into the shelter, remember this ban is to help protect them, and considering you may not bring your beer outside...WTF? Shelters may also not be made out of any flammable materials because we all know that cigarettes start fires very quickly. AND the big final straw for this being shit...no heating elements in outdoor smoking areas...so much for being warm in winter.

You ever try to stay warm under a heating lamp in winter? Unless its a fully enclosed room with a roof and a bunch of heating lamps it is NOT going to work. Not to mention the electric bill you get with running those lamp is going to make you shit enough bricks to build a whole new addition to the bar!

Dude...go around and ask smokers if they think it makes them look sexy...you will not get many positive responses. Its called a vice and I like mine. Better for my health? Really? Oh thank you SO much for letting me know I though it was the cure for my herpes! You know I can name alot of things that other people do that are not good for their health. I am sorry to tell all the non-smokers this but...remember to brace yourself here...you will eventually die too! OMFG!

I smoke because I like it. I don't want to come to your side I have made more friend on the smoking deck and I will stay with them. If I want to look sexy I view that as me wearing my work clothes while holding a wrench and a shop towel leaning up against my car. If I want to look cool...well I will be real here I can't make myself look cool. I do healthy things to but in my mind I started dying long before I started smoking yet I still have my fun...maybe if your side had super awesome cookies I would think about coming over there...

Oh yeah one last point...not that I hate you or anything but you made a rookie mistake when you said "why not just quit and join our SIDE". First off smokers are SICK of hearing "why not just quit" and the response I often hear and use is "why not just go and fuck yourself" because people don't like other people judging their vices like that. Second, people continue to divide us into SIDES which just makes things worse...if you don't want opposition then don't keep diving us up into statistics or sideshow acts. Why do smokers tend to get aggressive in these kinds of topics? Maybe because the statement you made is pretty much the verbal equivalent of poking us with pointy sticks while screaming how much better you are than us and how right you are. You are going to die to and up until that day your shit stinks too no matter how much healthy food you pack your colon with. Have a nice say...

*claps hands*

very good points now i will more then likely break down and buy an e-cig cuz well i still want my nicotine ix damn it and if i'm in the mood for a smoke i dont wanna slam my beer or mixed drink or set it down or wait to have my smoke....there are plenty of things non smokers may do thats bad for there health hell there at a bar getting drunk causing liver damage yes? no i know the long term effects of smoking and drinking may be different but if Person A smokes a pack a day and gose to the bar drinks yes his/her health may be worse then Person B who just goes to the bar and drinks every weekend but my point is....Person B is still drinking every weekend and causing further damage to there liver and being a wee bit of a hypocrite by saying quit smokin its healthier for you as they slur and take another drink....and as Candyman said thats not directed toward anyone in here just saying inpaticular...and i agree as well as saying i know smoking isnt sexy and i know it isnt cool its a vice and a addiction i have...but i enjoy this addition hell i love smoking ive made freinds at the clubs and bars bumming a cigarette or giving someone a smoke and just chatting after that

[Msterbeau]

If you need the nicotine, you could always have Marvin mix a little of this stuff in your drinks: http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/SensibleShopper/story?id=2114263&page=1

[*Siren*]

Here in Canada, we have had this law for a while and honestly... there is no big deal about it. So during the summer you step outside and have a smoke, most people are okay with that. Now yes in the winter it does get cold but some places treat the smokers better then non smokers. Giving them free Hot chocolate or putting up special heating lambs for these people... while non smokers got Jack shit

I live in Canada and I have never been given anything, nor have I ever heard of this happening anytime, anywhere.

Second, a lot of bars here went out of business after the smoking ban. A lot of smokers stopped going, especially in bad weather and the non-smokers who cried "maybe I would go to a bar if there wasn't smoking" didn't start going after the ban. Those who actually wanted to go to the bar were going anyways, smoking or not.

I realize that smoke is bothersome to a lot of people, but compromises can be made by both smokers and non-smokers that should make everyone happy. Long before the Ontario ban Windsor made restaurants enclose their smoking areas so non-smokers would not be bothered by it. This could have been extended to bars that way smokers can have their cigarettes, non-smokers don't breathe it in and bar owners can still have smoking in their establishments if they choose to put in a smoking room. Sounds fair to me.

Edited April 28, 2010 by *Siren*

[Hollywood]

yeah, if that's true, it's fucking assinine. gods, i hate people!!

It is not true. You can smoke just outside the doors.

[Hollywood]

Here is the major thing though... do you think making all the bars and restaurants go back to allow smoking is a good thing? Really it is not. It is one step in the right direction. Smoking is bad for you the smoker, it is bad for us the non-smoker, it is bad for the environment, it is bad for everything. So how about instead of bitching that you can not smoke inside your favorite bar, use this as an chance to break the habit, free yourself of the addiction and be healthy!

[candyman]

Here is the major thing though... do you think making all the bars and restaurants go back to allow smoking is a good thing? Really it is not. It is one step in the right direction. Smoking is bad for you the smoker, it is bad for us the non-smoker, it is bad for the environment, it is bad for everything. So how about instead of bitching that you can not smoke inside your favorite bar, use this as an chance to break the habit, free yourself of the addiction and be healthy!

Again dude you can quit with the "smoking is bad" shit because most of the smokers on her already know that unless you assume we have a 6th grade education just because we smoke.

Has anyone EVER said that they want all the bars and restaurants to go back to smoking forever? NO! Ever since the bans started I have heard almost every smoker agree that we do not care about restaurants but we would like to see compromise when it comes to bars...like owners choice or a 50/50 split of maybe even a limited number of smoking permits per county or something. More often then not the people defending smokers rights are offering solutions that would give all of us options.

Yes I will be pissed that I can't smoke in my favorite bar and so will many other people. I suggest that you come to my town just to see what the situation here is when it come to smoking in bars. I can take you to Monkey Bar first because that is my home bar. There is no dress code but I would suggest that you wear black boots, jeans, and something leather over a T-shirt and if you show up on something besides a Harley make sure that you park it around the corner. Now walk inside and tell me and the other patrons to stop bitching and to free ourselves from the habit and he healthy!

What will happen? I will tell you with emoticons...they are all like ...then its all ...then you are like ...and I say DILLIGAS?

No cigarettes are not bad for everything...the taxes go towards hospitals for children all over the US unless Obama was lying to us. Tell me or any other smoker to be healthy, your version of healthy, one more time and I will give you an awesome look at your prostate so you can check for problems.

[freydis]

Tell me or any other smoker to be healthy, your version of healthy, one more time and I will give you an awesome look at your prostate so you can check for problems.

Calm the hell down.

No one needs to be slinging that shit around.

It's just an online discussion.

[freydis]

....and if you're so against people talking about smokers quitting, why list quitting smoking as an interest on your profile?

[*Siren*]

Here is the major thing though... do you think making all the bars and restaurants go back to allow smoking is a good thing? Really it is not. It is one step in the right direction. Smoking is bad for you the smoker, it is bad for us the non-smoker, it is bad for the environment, it is bad for everything. So how about instead of bitching that you can not smoke inside your favorite bar, use this as an chance to break the habit, free yourself of the addiction and be healthy!

Do I tell you to put down the Big Mac combo because it's bad for you? No. I smoke because I enjoy it, not unlike people who eat junk food or drink alcohol because they enjoy it. Unless you have never eaten anything unhealthy, drank a beer or done anything inhealthy you have no business telling me what I should or shouldn't do for the sake of my health. We all have our vices and if I'm smoking outside or in a separate enclosed area it's none of your bees wax.

[torn asunder]

i don't think anyone can argue that the way they went about this ban/what it entails is kinda shitty, but imo, it's a step in the right direction. now that we've taken that step, we need to modify it, to make things more reasonable.

i've mentioned it before; what really should happen is 1) businesses should be able to buy a "smoking" license, just as they do a liquor license. the extra revenue brought in could be used for inspectors to do the following... 2) there should be regulations on the air quality of establishments purchasing said license. air filtration systems (e.g. requiring updraft filtration to prevent side-drifting of smoke), random air sample testing, fines for exceeding established limits, and revocation of said license after X number of violations. 3) workers who are employed by smoking establishments should be required to sign a waiver (or some other form of acknowledgment) that they understand they will be working in a smoking environment and are ok with it.

the current ban is a step in the right direction, (imo, as i said), but now we need to refine it for practicality and equality.

[torn asunder]

Do I tell you to put down the Big Mac combo because it's bad for you? No. I smoke because I enjoy it, not unlike people who eat junk food or drink alcohol because they enjoy it. Unless you have never eaten anything unhealthy, drank a beer or done anything inhealthy you have no business telling me what I should or shouldn't do for the sake of my health. We all have our vices and if I'm smoking outside or in a separate enclosed area it's none of your bees wax.

i think you're missing the point... i've never had somebody else's big mac, or drink, drift across the room & enter my body. smoking is different than the other negative habits people have, because people *can't* stop it from impacting others. i can choose not to eat a big mac, or have a drink - i *can't* sit in a bar & choose to not have other people's smoke enter my body.

personally, i like going to bars, usually to see live bands. i order a diet coke when i go. i have to put up with second-hand smoke because there are so few places (none that i'm aware of in k'zoo) that are non-smoking and have live bands. personally, i'm thrilled that these places will be smoke free. i do, however, think these establishments should be allowed to provide accomodations for smokers, because it's also unfair to make it so difficult for them to partake of their chosen vice. if that can be done while allowing me my right to choose not to smoke, i think it should be allowed.

[candyman]

....and if you're so against people talking about smokers quitting, why list quitting smoking as an interest on your profile?

I did not realize that it was still posted in my profile...and I am only "quitting" for Basic Training...after that I will start up again.

And yeah quitting smoking is one of my interests since it is easy to do and I have done it about 60 times! Plus, its still my choice to smoke or to quit smoking and people need to stop with the preaching.

Edited April 28, 2010 by candyman

[torn asunder]

And yeah quitting smoking is one of my interests since it is easy to do and I have done it about 60 times! Plus, its still my choice to smoke or to quit smoking and people need to stop with the preaching.

i find it interesting that people (in general) think that "quitting" something means quitting forever. i don't think that's totally necessary.

[candyman]

i don't think anyone can argue that the way they went about this ban/what it entails is kinda shitty, but imo, it's a step in the right direction. now that we've taken that step, we need to modify it, to make things more reasonable.

i've mentioned it before; what really should happen is 1) businesses should be able to buy a "smoking" license, just as they do a liquor license. the extra revenue brought in could be used for inspectors to do the following... 2) there should be regulations on the air quality of establishments purchasing said license. air filtration systems (e.g. requiring updraft filtration to prevent side-drifting of smoke), random air sample testing, fines for exceeding established limits, and revocation of said license after X number of violations. 3) workers who are employed by smoking establishments should be required to sign a waiver (or some other form of acknowledgment) that they understand they will be working in a smoking environment and are ok with it.

the current ban is a step in the right direction, (imo, as i said), but now we need to refine it for practicality and equality.

+1

I may be a step in the right direction but I see it as a step too far and now we have to fix a bunch of shit. However, the government has never been good at working on something to please everyone or anything with the word compromise in it.

The filtration system is easy. Any system currently employed in a business, as long as its up to code, is more than capable of handling cigarette smoke. The only problem is getting the air up to the vents which is actually easily solved by using "smoke eaters" what are not just for smoke but are used in shops and such to keep the air around you clean. They look like roulette wheel and they really do eat smoke...they pull it up and push it off along the ceiling.

And for air testing look at the reports from OSHA and other private testing companies.

"Field studies of environmental tobacco smoke indicate that under normal conditions, the components in tobacco smoke are diluted below existing Permissible Exposure Levels (PELS.) as referenced in the Air Contaminant Standard (29 CFR 1910.1000)...It would be very rare to find a workplace with so much smoking that any individual PEL would be exceeded."

-Letter From Greg Watchman, Acting Ass't Sec'y, OSHA, To Leroy J Pletten, PHD, July 8, 1997

You would have to spend a LONG time in a bar with smoke being blown directly at you to reach the PEL hazard area. OSHA was sued by ASH, a group of crazy people, but the lawsuit was threatened when OSHA threatened a full release of their findings. Remember OSHA determines save levels of exposure for workers?

I agree with you on most of all of your points except for the exposure part. If it were really that bad PPM and PEL levels would signal at least a small risk for a short time exposure. We would also be seeing more problems than we really are.