countdown to no-smoking thread

[Slogo]

Being a "Stoner" at one time & Having being sober for many months and then sitting in a room FULL of Marijuana smoke, I felt NO effects from the smoking going on in the room... Therefore I believe Rev is correct in stating that "contact high" is a purely a metal And/Or spiritual phenomenon.

[Slogo]

All smokers are fascists and all non-smokers are communists and I am just a bumblebee in the flower of life.

Thought I'd bring some beauty into the thread

[torn asunder]

shit... you were kidding, weren't you? i got taken!!

[Destroit]

+1000

Everyone is going to be up in arms when all this new Internet legislation passes, screaming about how unfair it is, and no one will understand that because they allowed "small" things like the smoking ban to pass, it set a precedent for bigger and nastier restrictions on freedom. The smoking ban is about control, and to a lesser extent raising revenue, though it's presented as a public health issue. This is the same reasoning that has been used in New York and other places to justify taxes on "unhealthy" food.

All the mean-spirited dancing around and childish mocking of smokers by the militant anti-smokers (case in point: SpammerovtheGods) is, I think, due in part to people in our society unsuccessfully coping with a feeling of powerlessness in their lives. Everyone feels vaguely uneasy about the degree of control government has over us, even if they don't necessarily understand why they feel that way. With a smoking ban, the anti-tobacco crowd feels like they're on the "winning team". They get to look down their collective nose at another group of people and feel powerful. They meekly knuckle under to the thousand little things that do affect them instead of standing up for themselves. It angers them when they see smokers protesting that which they see as unfair.

Totalitarian regimes always present freedom-limiting measures as being "for the public good" or "for the children". This is just another step in the incremental march toward government sticking its nose into every aspect of your life. If the State of Michigan was really interested in protecting the health of its citizens, they wouldn't be putting fluoride in our drinking water (look up the MSDS for sodium fluoride sometime), allowing phthalates in the plastics we use, or dihydrogen monoxide in our food. If the issue were to be left up to the bar owners, you'd see an explosion of smoke free establishments opening up, especially if tax incentives were put in place.

Is smoking bad for you? YES. Is secondhand smoke bad for you? Probably; the jury is still out as to just how bad. What we have to decide is how long we're going to tolerate the tax, fine, and spend behavior of our state government. How long will it be 'til Michigan decides to start taxing pop, salt, and trans fats like other states and municipalities have? All I ask is that you think a little about these things before you start in with the "nyah nyah nyah, you dirty smokers" thing.

You just won at awesomely sound logic

Except for all that water-in-food nonsense. I used to think water was out to get me earlier in life, but I now realize that air is the true enemy.

You just won at awesomely sound logic

Except for all that water-in-food nonsense. I used to think water was out to get me earlier in life, but I now realize that air is the true enemy.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Chernobyl

[Nightgaunt]

shit... you were kidding, weren't you? i got taken!!

I figured, what the hell, as no one seems to actually investigate references in forum posts anyway...

[Simon Bar Sinister]

All the mean-spirited dancing around and childish mocking of smokers by the militant anti-smokers (case in point: SpammerovtheGods) is, I think, due in part to people in our society unsuccessfully coping with a feeling of powerlessness in their lives. Everyone feels vaguely uneasy about the degree of control government has over us, even if they don't necessarily understand why they feel that way. With a smoking ban, the anti-tobacco crowd feels like they're on the "winning team". They get to look down their collective nose at another group of people and feel powerful. They meekly knuckle under to the thousand little things that do affect them instead of standing up for themselves. It angers them when they see smokers protesting that which they see as unfair.

Is smoking bad for you? YES. Is secondhand smoke bad for you? Probably; the jury is still out as to just how bad. What we have to decide is how long we're going to tolerate the tax, fine, and spend behavior of our state government. How long will it be 'til Michigan decides to start taxing pop, salt, and trans fats like other states and municipalities have? All I ask is that you think a little about these things before you start in with the "nyah nyah nyah, you dirty smokers" thing.

Did any of you complaining about this ban ever organize or join a protest campaign? Find out if your state rep was for or against? Contribute money and/or time to their campaigns if they were with you, or work against them if they weren't? Did you work for or against a candidate on either side back in 2008, when this bill was making its way through the legislature? Are you going to find and support candidates for this fall's election who will work to overturn the ban? If you can't find one, will you run yourselves?

I'd bet big $$$ that the answer to those questions is no.

What amazed me in all of this process is how little protest there appears to have been. Where were you guys protesting this, exactly? Yeah, you're only (depending on whose numbers you look at) 12-20% of the voting-eligible population, but a highly vocal and organized minority can fight way beyond their weight class.

Edited April 27, 2010 by SpammerOvTheGods

[candyman]

...that comparison is of things people do in their home vs something thats being banned in a public building. Does not equate.

Personally? I think when people wear obnoxiously strong cologne to work, its a bit rude. Theyre subjecting people to something obnoxious in a setting where they cant easily get away from it. And at my place of business, there's *one* individual in a building of many hundreds who is very allergic to pointsettias, and there was a building wide memo that they werent permitted in the building over christmas. In an environment where theres many others, people should be mindful of others.

I dont think the ban is as effective (or makes as much sense) for bars. I do think it makes sense for other buildings, including *anywhere* that serves food.

Yes the comparison does work...these building are not really public. (I am only referring to bars here that is all I want)

Most of these places can kick you out for almost any reason if they don't want to in there. The bar owner pretty much runs the bar like its an extension of his house...decorations, televisions, pool tables, food during Packers and Brewers games...most of the owners that I know spend WAY too much time at their bars.

So when I used the home comparison I was just thinking of the bars...however here in Wisconsin we tend to look at our bars differently than most people...

[candyman]

Did any of you complaining about this ban ever organize or join a protest campaign? Find out if your state rep was for or against? Contribute money and/or time to their campaigns if they were with you, or work against them if they weren't? Did you work for or against a candidate on either side back in 2008, when this bill was making its way through the legislature? Are you going to find and support candidates for this fall's election who will work to overturn the ban? If you can't find one, will you run yourselves?

I'd bet big $$$ that the answer to those questions is no.

What amazed me in all of this process is how little protest there appears to have been. Where were you guys protesting this, exactly? Yeah, you're only (depending on whose numbers you look at) 12-20% of the voting-eligible population, but a highly vocal and organized minority can fight way beyond their weight class.

I don't know about what people did in Michigan but in Wisconsin the organization was easy...we have the Wisconsin Tavern League. The WTL represents the bars and the people that frequent them when it comes to decisions made in individual towns and even in the state capital. The WTL is the group that fought for sanctions and worked to get the bill changed to allow for exemptions...and it was easy for us to help vote because the meeting were at the bars. Surprisingly enough there was really no mention of their decision on a smoking ban when it came to candidates in the polls...guess it wasn't high enough on the priority list.

Yes we are a minority. However, if smokers are the only people that would vote against a ban explain to me WHY or HOW the statewide bad was voted down twice before in Wisconsin? Hmmm? It seems of that such a small minority would be able to sway the public opinion that much if we were not doing anything. We did not have to fight beyond our weight class because we had friends.

Most of the bans passed has been quickly slipped into a vote so that reaction time for opponents is very short. Also, most bans have not passed with a vast majority and again I will use Wisconsin as a reference here...the bill only passed by 1 vote even with them sneaking it in at the last minute.

And dude you should know that smokers can't protest. With the condition we are in the walking and the shouting would have half of us passing out after one or two blocks...and we certainly can't hold signs big enough to see because that requires two hands which would leave no hand free to hold a cigarette.

[Nightgaunt]

Did any of you complaining about this ban ever organize or join a protest campaign? Find out if your state rep was for or against? Contribute money and/or time to their campaigns if they were with you, or work against them if they weren't? Did you work for or against a candidate on either side back in 2008, when this bill was making its way through the legislature? Are you going to find and support candidates for this fall's election who will work to overturn the ban? If you can't find one, will you run yourselves?

I'd bet big $$ that the answer to those questions is no.

What amazed me in all of this process is how little protest there appears to have been. Where were you guys protesting this, exactly? Yeah, you're only (depending on whose numbers you look at) 12-20% of the voting-eligible population, but a highly vocal and organized minority can fight way beyond their weight class.

I did contact Rep. Ellen Lipton's and Sen. Gilda Jacob's offices. I was told that both were planning to vote yes and I told them that I was disappointed and that I will not be voting for either of them. I can't throw all my energy behind every single political issue, and this is only one symptom, IMHO, of a much larger problem. Most of my energy goes into working with the We the People Foundation for Constitutional Education.

Whether or not everyone who opposed the smoking ban contributed money or time to the campaigns of various politicians or ran for the State Legislature themselves is immaterial. I was simply stating what I thought some of the reasons were for some non-smokers regressing mentally to the level of eight-year-olds. If someone's parent dies of lung cancer, do you get in their face and make snarky comments? You quoted my post, but did not address the core point. Why do you feel the need to rub people's noses in it? I mean, is there some noble underlying reason that I'm just missing?

[Hellion]

+1000

Everyone is going to be up in arms when all this new Internet legislation passes, screaming about how unfair it is, and no one will understand that because they allowed "small" things like the smoking ban to pass, it set a precedent for bigger and nastier restrictions on freedom. The smoking ban is about control, and to a lesser extent raising revenue, though it's presented as a public health issue. This is the same reasoning that has been used in New York and other places to justify taxes on "unhealthy" food.

All the mean-spirited dancing around and childish mocking of smokers by the militant anti-smokers (case in point: SpammerovtheGods) is, I think, due in part to people in our society unsuccessfully coping with a feeling of powerlessness in their lives. Everyone feels vaguely uneasy about the degree of control government has over us, even if they don't necessarily understand why they feel that way. With a smoking ban, the anti-tobacco crowd feels like they're on the "winning team". They get to look down their collective nose at another group of people and feel powerful. They meekly knuckle under to the thousand little things that do affect them instead of standing up for themselves. It angers them when they see smokers protesting that which they see as unfair.

Totalitarian regimes always present freedom-limiting measures as being "for the public good" or "for the children". This is just another step in the incremental march toward government sticking its nose into every aspect of your life. If the State of Michigan was really interested in protecting the health of its citizens, they wouldn't be putting fluoride in our drinking water (look up the MSDS for sodium fluoride sometime), allowing phthalates in the plastics we use, or dihydrogen monoxide in our food. If the issue were to be left up to the bar owners, you'd see an explosion of smoke free establishments opening up, especially if tax incentives were put in place.

Is smoking bad for you? YES. Is secondhand smoke bad for you? Probably; the jury is still out as to just how bad. What we have to decide is how long we're going to tolerate the tax, fine, and spend behavior of our state government. How long will it be 'til Michigan decides to start taxing pop, salt, and trans fats like other states and municipalities have? All I ask is that you think a little about these things before you start in with the "nyah nyah nyah, you dirty smokers" thing.

And people say this is the best country in the world,"was the best,was" I think our POS government is pulling the "copy cat" bs,they copy bs from other nations governments and and force that onto to us.

well said Nightgaunt!

[Nightgaunt]

And people say this is the best country in the world,"was the best,was" I think our POS government is pulling the "copy cat" bs,they copy bs from other nations governments and and force that onto to us.

well said Nightgaunt!

Well-put, yourself. We have a Canadian governor in this state and her approach to governing is very Canadian: the government knows what's best for the people and taxes them into submission.

[Hellion]

Well-put, yourself. We have a Canadian governor in this state and her approach to governing is very Canadian: the government knows what's best for the people and taxes them into submission.

Thanks dude,yeah maybe a thread titled "Copy Cat Government" would be an idea,still wonder how many will actually know what we are talking about.

[Nightgaunt]

Thanks dude,yeah maybe a thread titled "Copy Cat Government" would be an idea,still wonder how many will actually know what we are talking about.

Not a bad idea. Maybe explore the ways in which the U.S. is becoming less of a sovereign nation and falling more in line with the dictates of the "global community", specifically the influence of the international banking interests.

[the_fairy_gothmother]

There are states that have a ban on smoking in your own home or vehicle, even with the windows rolled up. Michigan is well on its way to that. So...justifications on this? Anyone? I should hope not because there isn't any .

Hey you do know theres actually still a couple laws in michigan though for surely they may not be enforced a man can sure his wife over cutting her hair and its illegal to give oral sex.Though I fear for the future of our children because its not just the laws and the invasion of our privacy and freedom but our schools are taking away alot too. For instance my local school district is cutting down credits to graduate and will only have academic classes. No more elective. so that means no more art, wood shop, and music classes and other classes that once would have given kids other options to learn something useful and interesting. I been told they already made band a after school thing now. The drop out rate is already going up. If we continue seeing this trend in which we are forced to learn only what the government thinks we need to know. English math science and social studies well theres going to be a even bigger gap in whos employed and making money and whos not. I know I wouldnt be going to school if I could not learn art and music. Also another good reason Im not having kids.Look at parental rights. You cant punish your kids properly now days without the state knocking on your door for abuse. It happened to my own parents because my brother thought he was being clever and pushed my parents to spanking him and though yeah they left a couple small bruises on his ass with a belt he covered himself in them form a temper tantrum and told school social workers he was being abused. After that they lost complete control of him.

So as I see it we are heading into a future of a regime where the government will dictate what we can and cannot do. The bill of rights and declaration of indepenance mean almost about nothing now. theres too many people with opposing ideals and beliefs and stuff now days. The more we all fight each other about whos infringing on whos rights the more all our rights will be taken from us basically. And the govenrments going to weigh in on the side with the money.

[Hellion]

Not a bad idea. Maybe explore the ways in which the U.S. is becoming less of a sovereign nation and falling more in line with the dictates of the "global community", specifically the influence of the international banking interests.

Example, lets say this, in the middle east alcohol is not allowed

then our POS joke of a government decides to enact a law like

that "copycat",imagine the reaction from all the microbreweries and home brewers.

BTW we should discuss the banning of Freedom Of Speech,I guess gagging and surgically cutting

out people's voice boxes would be mandated,(sarcasm)but with the unfit system and all the sheeple

nothing surprises me anymore.

[TitsMcGee]

Hey you do know theres actually still a couple laws in michigan though for surely they may not be enforced a man can sure his wife over cutting her hair and its illegal to give oral sex.Though I fear for the future of our children because its not just the laws and the invasion of our privacy and freedom but our schools are taking away alot too. For instance my local school district is cutting down credits to graduate and will only have academic classes. No more elective. so that means no more art, wood shop, and music classes and other classes that once would have given kids other options to learn something useful and interesting. I been told they already made band a after school thing now. The drop out rate is already going up. If we continue seeing this trend in which we are forced to learn only what the government thinks we need to know. English math science and social studies well theres going to be a even bigger gap in whos employed and making money and whos not. I know I wouldnt be going to school if I could not learn art and music. Also another good reason Im not having kids.Look at parental rights. You cant punish your kids properly now days without the state knocking on your door for abuse. It happened to my own parents because my brother thought he was being clever and pushed my parents to spanking him and though yeah they left a couple small bruises on his ass with a belt he covered himself in them form a temper tantrum and told school social workers he was being abused. After that they lost complete control of him.

So as I see it we are heading into a future of a regime where the government will dictate what we can and cannot do. The bill of rights and declaration of indepenance mean almost about nothing now. theres too many people with opposing ideals and beliefs and stuff now days. The more we all fight each other about whos infringing on whos rights the more all our rights will be taken from us basically. And the govenrments going to weigh in on the side with the money.

Actually, you can't drop out of high school now till the age of 18..another one of those state laws they just passed. </thread jack>

[Simon Bar Sinister]

I don't know about what people did in Michigan but in Wisconsin the organization was easy...we have the Wisconsin Tavern League. The WTL represents the bars and the people that frequent them when it comes to decisions made in individual towns and even in the state capital. The WTL is the group that fought for sanctions and worked to get the bill changed to allow for exemptions...and it was easy for us to help vote because the meeting were at the bars. Surprisingly enough there was really no mention of their decision on a smoking ban when it came to candidates in the polls...guess it wasn't high enough on the priority list.

Yes we are a minority. However, if smokers are the only people that would vote against a ban explain to me WHY or HOW the statewide bad was voted down twice before in Wisconsin? Hmmm? It seems of that such a small minority would be able to sway the public opinion that much if we were not doing anything. We did not have to fight beyond our weight class because we had friends.

Most of the bans passed has been quickly slipped into a vote so that reaction time for opponents is very short. Also, most bans have not passed with a vast majority and again I will use Wisconsin as a reference here...the bill only passed by 1 vote even with them sneaking it in at the last minute.

And dude you should know that smokers can't protest. With the condition we are in the walking and the shouting would have half of us passing out after one or two blocks...and we certainly can't hold signs big enough to see because that requires two hands which would leave no hand free to hold a cigarette.

The ban in Michigan was a loooong time coming - hell, this isn't even the 1st thread I started on the topic. That would be this one:

http://www.detroitgothic.net/index.php?showtopic=23598&st=0

Your "smokers have friends" comment shines a light on exactly what I never saw happen here...and I'd been following this issue for 2 or 3 months when I started that first thread. I never thought a ban would pass here because I expected an organized resistance that never arose. Maybe our legislators would've tried to sneak it by in the middle of a late-night session...but the point is that they never had to.

Nightgaunt: saying that some proponents of the ban are "regressing mentally to the level of eight-year-olds" before asking if I make snarky comments to someone who loses a loved one to lung cancer...not the best lead-in there. Anyway, I openly admitted I was gloating back on page 1. As far as the "losing our freedom" argument that has been raised over and over again in this thread...80+% of us are now free of having to put up with the smoke produced by the (at most) other 20% when we want to enjoy a night out. Or doesn't that count for anything? Is our freedom somehow less important because we didn't take up the habit?

[candyman]

The ban in Michigan was a loooong time coming - hell, this isn't even the 1st thread I started on the topic. That would be this one:

http://www.detroitgothic.net/index.php?showtopic=23598&st=0

Your "smokers have friends" comment shines a light on exactly what I never saw happen here...and I'd been following this issue for 2 or 3 months when I started that first thread. I never thought a ban would pass here because I expected an organized resistance that never arose. Maybe our legislators would've tried to sneak it by in the middle of a late-night session...but the point is that they never had to.

Nightgaunt: saying that some proponents of the ban are "regressing mentally to the level of eight-year-olds" before asking if I make snarky comments to someone who loses a loved one to lung cancer...not the best lead-in there. Anyway, I openly admitted I was gloating back on page 1. As far as the "losing our freedom" argument that has been raised over and over again in this thread...80+% of us are now free of having to put up with the smoke produced by the (at most) other 20% when we want to enjoy a night out. Or doesn't that count for anything? Is our freedom somehow less important because we didn't take up the habit?

Ok, it has been done differently in most states so I guess Michigan didn't fight it that well. However, in my belief a statewide smoking ban in ANY state should be similar to bans in other states if they want some measure of consistency. I mean if it is all good for us why is everything different? Why are hookah bars still running during the ban where you have to step outside for a cigarette? It doesn't make any sense...there is almost no similarity when it comes to bans in different states except for a few things. They all ban smoking in most buildings. The laws stating where you can still smoke are still fuzzy at best. No provisions are made for outdoor areas it just says you have to be out there...no the collapsing structures in Cali don't count as outdoor provisions.

Sure it sucks that a minority makes it difficult for a majority. However the ban went too far in this area. Each individual bar has a different client base...and in some towns the client base a made up of mostly smokers. Tell me, how many of your 80% actually go to the bar on a regular basis? Do their trips to the bar pay the bar's bills? I am just talking about bars here not places that serve food and not even clubs...those places attract a wider base that bars do in most cases.

The reasons the bans are shit are because of the lack of though put into them. Anyone who thinks that every single bar is for every single person is kidding themselves. I would LOVE for see alot of your 80% go into the bars that I frequent...really it would be terribly funny. Maybe they could park their Prius of Miata somewhere in between two Harleys that didn't close the gap in the line or maybe they could park under one of the lifted trucks. Oh and then they could go inside and sit between a biker in from a long ride and one of the farm hands in from a long day at the field and talk about how pissed off they are that the copy machine got jammed again...or how much their college homework sucks.

The ban assumes too much and that is a problem. The whole idea that people are not going to most bars because of the smoke is bullshit. There are many types of bars just like the one I described about and I would bet both my testicles, my leather jacket, and my rebuilt shovelhead that once the ban falls over these bars there will be nobody rushing out of their house to attend them. If the ban used discretion and looked at the bars and who they attract and what those people want/like I think that things would be different. The bar owners could decide and then I am damn sure that there would be close to a 50/50 split between smoking and non-smoking bars. OH NO we would all get a little of what we want! Yeah you should have a choice...so should other people...

[the_fairy_gothmother]

Actually, you can't drop out of high school now till the age of 18..another one of those state laws they just passed. </thread jack>

Yeah well you think its going to stop kids from ditching school or getting expelled? Getting suspended and expelled is so easy now days. If schools are truly getting to be like this to heck with public schools home school em and yeah so they might not get all the social stuff that is if your not willing to take them out to socialise. My area actually has a local library program for home school students to come and study together and interact.

I feel sort of bad for the smokers I know if I did something I enjoyed and people were trying to make me quit it would be a kick in the ass having some law passed that made it more difficult. Just hopefully during this people keep a level head and dont try protesting it too largely in a way that would cause harm to themselves or others and get into huge legal trouble. I suppose we just have to accept the fact and make do with it and try negotiating ways to make it more fair for not only patrons but business owners.

[Nightgaunt]

Nightgaunt: saying that some proponents of the ban are "regressing mentally to the level of eight-year-olds" before asking if I make snarky comments to someone who loses a loved one to lung cancer...not the best lead-in there. Anyway, I openly admitted I was gloating back on page 1. As far as the "losing our freedom" argument that has been raised over and over again in this thread...80+% of us are now free of having to put up with the smoke produced by the (at most) other 20% when we want to enjoy a night out. Or doesn't that count for anything? Is our freedom somehow less important because we didn't take up the habit?

I ask about the cancer thing because I have heard comments like that MANY times. Great, you openly admitted you were gloating. My question is, again, why the gloating? Why the need to rub noses in it? I'm not even going to address the "Is our freedom somehow less important because we didn't take up the habit?" question, as it has been answered over and over again in multiple threads; the anti-smokers don't want to listen.

[Msterbeau]

Ignoring the freedom of expression/government issues for a moment... Why is it that non-smokers were willing to go to their favorite bars and put up with the smoke and support those establishments under less than ideal conditions for them, but smokers won't? Or will you?

[f0rged]

Ignoring the freedom of expression/government issues for a moment... Why is it that non-smokers were willing to go to their favorite bars and put up with the smoke and support those establishments under less than ideal conditions for them, but smokers won't? Or will you?

I was wondering the same thing. I didn't go to City for quite a while simply because I couldn't handle the smoke that much. But I never held it against them. But I mention to people at city that I'm quite happy that I may be able to breath normal for once and people jump dpwn my throat. So many people say they're boycotting city club because of this..as if City Club itself banned the smoking. I honestly think people are making a much larger deal out of this than need be. With all the talk about the goverment I'm surprised half the people here aren't walking around with tin foil hats.

/rant

[Msterbeau]

I was wondering the same thing. I didn't go to City for quite a while simply because I couldn't handle the smoke that much. But I never held it against them. But I mention to people at city that I'm quite happy that I may be able to breath normal for once and people jump dpwn my throat. So many people say they're boycotting city club because of this..as if City Club itself banned the smoking. I honestly think people are making a much larger deal out of this than need be. With all the talk about the goverment I'm surprised half the people here aren't walking around with tin foil hats.

/rant

Exactly. It feels an awful lot like: "If we can't play in my sandbox by my rules than I'm not playing at all" And the one that will get hurts most by this is the establishments.

So smokers... If you want a fair compromise, work for that. I could live with smoking if there was GOOD ventilation and some restriction as to where it could be done within the premises. But "boycotting" places achieves nothing but the possible demise of the place you love.

[Hellion]

I'm still waiting for that bi--h Granmole to pull other bs as well.

I would laugh if someone actually went up to her face and said

"your nothing but a tax hiking fu--ing bi--h trying to ruin what is left of

Michigan"then belched right in her face.

other than that beware of other things/rights that will be compromised,

for both smokers and non smokers.

[n0Mad]

Ignoring the freedom of expression/government issues for a moment... Why is it that non-smokers were willing to go to their favorite bars and put up with the smoke and support those establishments under less than ideal conditions for them, but smokers won't? Or will you?

With all the talk about the goverment I'm surprised half the people here aren't walking around with tin foil hats.