Dinosaurs On Noahs Arc...

[Steven]

By the way Neister I jsut realized that I did not address your last statement.

Yes, you are right.

men who wrote the Bible were not collaborating on it, this is true. How often do you colaborate on individual written peices of history, poetry, songs, prophesy, letters etc? It was not a cohesive patriarichal project, it was simply men responding to their muse.

the errors that you speak of (link to)..... I've heard and read compelling explanations on both sides of the argument. But my general observation is that the alleged errors (for example the death of Judas and or the purchase of the potter's field by whom) that are cited are never pivital to the Gospel message that Christianity centers on. The collection fo texts was cannonized to reinforce a central God to Man reconcilliation theme. Also, in the cannonized text itself - a great deal of time and energy is spent in exemplifying the liberation of the people from the religeous order of the day. It is true that that example has been warped and manipulated by the power structure of the church, but that is not and never was Christianity, and that is clear.

I also disagree with your statment that none of it makes any sense. It alctually in my opinion makes a tremendous amount of sense, but Ive asked you to unpeel the layers of this frustration on (your) part before in detail and you opt to disregard that.

And finnaly in terms of illitaracy...and I've asked you this before, how educated were the biblical writers if there were any, and and who among them would fall into that category? Parrallel that with the central 12 figures of Christs inner circle, what types of social clicks did they represent and what would their skillsets have been? How may that have been reflected in the written text in terms of shortcomings and ommissions and central themes?

Also what can you tell me about the verbal skillsets of the common day Hebrew of Christ's time and how that lines up with your concerns about illiteracy and mind molding? For example what might a young Hebrew boy have to be able to do to be even considered for tutaledge under a Rabbi?

And then to answer your charge about Christianity - you have argued that as a religion its only been around for two thousand years. Although I fail to see how relevant that is to anything as it points to "truth", you fail to mention that the Christian faith is rooted in Abraham and the prophesies of that age in describing a God Man mediator called the Messiah. Christianity simply beleives that Christ was that Messiah, and that particular mindset and "religion" if you will dates back much deeper than 2000 years.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

You might not want to summarize someones statements as "bullshit". They may BE bullshit, but if you actually are expecting someone to take in what your saying, putting them on the defensive right away (even if they did the same already) is usually a bad system. I know its tempting when you get the impression some bull in a china shop just busts in with seemingly baseless assumptions, but, returning that tone in kind really does neither party any good.

Oh and the K-T Event caused by a metoer (the meteor that theoretically killed the dinosaurs) is generally considered to be pretty much a fact nowadays. The key was that the meteor impact was only "predicted" to be found and there was no actual crater that anyone knew about that fit the bill. It just seemed that there was a vast , unusual clay layer of sediment on the geologic column (sort of like the rings on trees but its layers in the earth) right around the time that 70% of all species on the planet seemed to have died off. (not just the dinosaurs) The only likely candidate to cause such a thing was a large impact crater from a meteor.

When they actually FOUND the thing, (called Chixulub) that was a virtual lock. Since then even more evidence about it has solidified it even more. Its near impossible to 100% "prove" stuff like this but its about as good as it gets.

Its cool how there are man scientific specific predictions (rather than vague nostradomus type stuff) that actually are borne out later on with a fairly high frequency. Guys like Einstein predicted all sorts of (bizarre) shit that we didn't actually find until decades after he died. Relativity for instance, predicted black holes, long before we ever actually had any real evidence that they existed. Gravitational Lensing, time dilation.. all stuff that are "facts" now only existed on paper as far as we knew then... That's partly how a "hypothesis" becomes a theory/law if it continues to hold true after more and more new evidence comes to light

Fuck here i go with another novella.

[BrassFusion]

damn, steven!!! wtf!

nister's question about people like gene simmons is VERY valid, and I wonder that I haven't thought about it before myself. since you credit all the good in your life to your christianity, you need to be open-minded enough to let others credit the positives in their life to different faiths or absence of faith altogether. end of story.

to say that only faith instead of its absence can make one a better successful person is quite arrogant.

of course, on the flipside, there are good christian men and women who suffer all the time. let me guess: they're not finding enough strength in their faith to cope, but it's all good because it's them who'll inherit the earth and such, whereas non-christians who suffer are only suffering because they haven't found jesus... yet?

[torn asunder]

i'm still confused about why people insist on externalizing deific (is that a word?) power - to separate oneself from one's "source" is the ultimate irony, to me. you believe yourself to be separate, and put effort into petitioning this "father/mother figure" for things. (forgiveness, intervention, etc...) why can't/don't people realize that we're all connected, spiritually, and that when jesus said "i am my father", it wasn't some kind of self-aggrandizing proclamation, it was a simple statement of this fact - "i am god". the thing nobody else seems to understand, is that we're all god - we all have the ability to manifest in our lives exactly that which we believe. this is the reason that good people have miserable lives, and why bad people can have "fairytale" ones. they *believe* they are deserving of that which they have. the saddest situations i've ever seen are solely due to people fully believing they're inadequate, undeserving, unloveable, and destined to bad luck, failure, and "doom & gloom". "god", or as i like to refer to our spiritual interconnectivity, "our source" is a machine/entity of creation. it only knows how to create, and it only creates that which the individual is conviced is the truth. if you believe in scarcity, that is what you will manifest - if you believe in suffering, poverty, or even simply bad luck, that's exactly what the source will manifest for you. exactly the opposite can be true, as well, but one has to know it to be so, not hope, not wish, not even will/want - one just has to believe/know. this, i think, is where faith got mixed up - it's not faith in some external benevolent creature who is in control of everything - it's faith that resides fully within you, and that is totally dependant upon your thoughts. you can have anything (generically) you want, if you believe it to be true.

wow, i'm wiped out now... i need to take a break...

[Msterbeau]

i'm still confused about why people insist on externalizing deific (is that a word?) power - to separate oneself from one's "source" is the ultimate irony, to me. you believe yourself to be separate, and put effort into petitioning this "father/mother figure" for things. (forgiveness, intervention, etc...) why can't/don't people realize that we're all connected, spiritually, and that when jesus said "i am my father", it wasn't some kind of self-aggrandizing proclamation, it was a simple statement of this fact - "i am god". the thing nobody else seems to understand, is that we're all god - we all have the ability to manifest in our lives exactly that which we believe. this is the reason that good people have miserable lives, and why bad people can have "fairytale" ones. they *believe* they are deserving of that which they have. the saddest situations i've ever seen are solely due to people fully believing they're inadequate, undeserving, unloveable, and destined to bad luck, failure, and "doom & gloom". "god", or as i like to refer to our spiritual interconnectivity, "our source" is a machine/entity of creation. it only knows how to create, and it only creates that which the individual is conviced is the truth. if you believe in scarcity, that is what you will manifest - if you believe in suffering, poverty, or even simply bad luck, that's exactly what the source will manifest for you. exactly the opposite can be true, as well, but one has to know it to be so, not hope, not wish, not even will/want - one just has to believe/know. this, i think, is where faith got mixed up - it's not faith in some external benevolent creature who is in control of everything - it's faith that resides fully within you, and that is totally dependant upon your thoughts. you can have anything (generically) you want, if you believe it to be true.

wow, i'm wiped out now... i need to take a break...

I say again: You are my hero. ;-)

[Steven]

damn, steven!!! wtf!

nister's question about people like gene simmons is VERY valid, and I wonder that I haven't thought about it before myself. since you credit all the good in your life to your christianity, you need to be open-minded enough to let others credit the positives in their life to different faiths or absence of faith altogether. end of story.

to say that only faith instead of its absence can make one a better successful person is quite arrogant.

of course, on the flipside, there are good christian men and women who suffer all the time. let me guess: they're not finding enough strength in their faith to cope, but it's all good because it's them who'll inherit the earth and such, whereas non-christians who suffer are only suffering because they haven't found jesus... yet?

Not exactly my little Love Bug.

You have many times in here heard me say that I beleive in a strange mix of predestination and fate. And that I beleive we are responsible for our decisions and our lifestyle and our quality of life. And that I do not see "God" as a benevolant mystic who occasionally sprinkles pixie dust on my life if I tow the line. I have said all of those things over and over again....

And I'll add - I definately do NOT criticize others for wanting to credit success to different lifestyles or faiths or absences of faith....I'm actually very open minded in that regard. And when I speak of successful living for my own life, I'm primarily talking about relational and community based results which to me are core to who I am.

And I allready told you Gene Simmons is one smart mutha but I forgot to mention his tongue. he's got that workin for him too. Why didint God give me a tongue like that?

See, Nister has argued points that I do not use - or introduced scenarios that I am not defending, and has for the most part used what I see as "generic" anti type arguments which I understand, but that often do not apply to my own statments or Christian walk. And if I ask him to give me something from his own experience to discuss, that just basically doesent happen. Instead I get online links with others agendas and points of view. I ask Neister for his own out of respect, because I in turn have shared my own expereinces and points of view in a continuously hostile or at least condescending environement.

And you do the same thign to me Erin, for example please let me quote you here:

"to say that only faith instead of its absence can make one a better successful person is quite arrogant."

Um, I didint say that. Never even HINTED that. Ever. Once. In my life. Nor have I thought it.

Thats why eventually I get a bit ticked. I mean Holy fuckin moly fucken A Erin, you know that kind of shit does not come out of my mouth or even enter my skull. You know that. I discuss/argue/suggest et al specific scenarios about my faith - MINE, frim my worldview, my experiences, my understanding, my struggles even, I dont throw mass right wing rhetoric at anybody. And yet I often get countered with generic responses that simply do not apply to Steven Urenda, Detroit Christian at large. And you present these things in ways that make me seem to be of a certain position, when in reality I am not - I am only guilty of being a Christian. So stop fucken lumping me Erin, not only do I not deserve it but I've consistently offerred you more respect than that you freakin heathen sucular humanist pagan humper.

Neister I cant really say that to yet (I dont know if he humps pagans), because we have not had many discussions. But you have eaten my green beans and liked them.

OK. exhale over. what was your question again? Here it is:

Erin: "of course, on the flipside, there are good christian men and women who suffer all the time. let me guess: they're not finding enough strength in their faith to cope, but it's all good because it's them who'll inherit the earth and such, whereas non-christians who suffer are only suffering because they haven't found jesus... yet?"

My answer: people suffer because the world contains sufferings. And we all live here.

thats about all I got for now...

[Steven]

You might not want to summarize someones statements as "bullshit". They may BE bullshit, but if you actually are expecting someone to take in what your saying, putting them on the defensive right away (even if they did the same already) is usually a bad system. I know its tempting when you get the impression some bull in a china shop just busts in with seemingly baseless assumptions, but, returning that tone in kind really does neither party any good.

You missed my point Troy.

I was saying, that it felt as if I was the one being charged with bullshitting, which is well, bullshit.

[Steven]

i'm still confused about why people insist on externalizing deific (is that a word?) power - to separate oneself from one's "source" is the ultimate irony, to me. you believe yourself to be separate, and put effort into petitioning this "father/mother figure" for things. (forgiveness, intervention, etc...) why can't/don't people realize that we're all connected, spiritually, and that when jesus said "i am my father", it wasn't some kind of self-aggrandizing proclamation, it was a simple statement of this fact - "i am god". the thing nobody else seems to understand, is that we're all god - we all have the ability to manifest in our lives exactly that which we believe. this is the reason that good people have miserable lives, and why bad people can have "fairytale" ones. they *believe* they are deserving of that which they have. the saddest situations i've ever seen are solely due to people fully believing they're inadequate, undeserving, unloveable, and destined to bad luck, failure, and "doom & gloom". "god", or as i like to refer to our spiritual interconnectivity, "our source" is a machine/entity of creation. it only knows how to create, and it only creates that which the individual is conviced is the truth. if you believe in scarcity, that is what you will manifest - if you believe in suffering, poverty, or even simply bad luck, that's exactly what the source will manifest for you. exactly the opposite can be true, as well, but one has to know it to be so, not hope, not wish, not even will/want - one just has to believe/know. this, i think, is where faith got mixed up - it's not faith in some external benevolent creature who is in control of everything - it's faith that resides fully within you, and that is totally dependant upon your thoughts. you can have anything (generically) you want, if you believe it to be true.

wow, i'm wiped out now... i need to take a break...

No Mike, I am not seperating mysel and petitioning.

I am aligning myself with the will of that which I feel has compelled me toward recognition.

and you made some good points here.

Jesus also however made statements about his own lack of knowledge in relation to The Father ("only the father knows"), and also made statments alluding to a degree of subordination to the Father within his current fleshly state of being. He also continuously prayed to The Father and supplicated himself, the ultimate expression of that probably beign his spoken words at the garden of Gethsemane prior to his being arrested. And he told his disciples at the transfiguration that he was returning to "his God, and your God". He also made clear to the that (he) The Son did the will of The father. Another interesting idea is his constant title that he used for himself, "The Son of Man"....

interesting stuff. Although I understand and can appreciate your ideas on mankind sharing Godhood with God, I'm not convinced that was Christ's intent in his examples relating to the Father.

[kellygrrrrrl]

If you look at Genesis,......it makes all sorts of sense when looking at it from a very simplistic standpoint.

Where the Dino's come in? I think it's somewhere between when god made all the plants and animals of the earth according to thier kind.

I think maybe god had several plans for this Rock.....and had to just keep on doing his projects until it was perfected....when he made man....which proved imperfect by nature...thats a diff story....

Maybe he saw all the dino's were stupid and ugly and violent and said, why'd I do that...asteroid DIE!

but in the long run, it has served its purpose.....OIL, gas, fossil fuels,....etc....

If god is all knowing, he would have known then that we'd need this stuff right now...today!

right?

maybe not....

but it made sense for like a minute.

As far as them being on the ark? well seems to me that they'd have eaten all the other animals and Noah....

lol....

[Der Nister]

First: (a question to a question) Why do people bother having children in this world, knowing how difficult and corrupt it is and knowing how many different thigns can present themselves in a tragic manner? Why bother?

Well let's see - that would be incredibly easy to answer. The answer is genetic programing. Single cell organisms also reproduce but you'll never see them at church reading a bible.

By the way Neister I jsut realized that I did not address your last statement.

Yes, you are right.

men who wrote the Bible were not collaborating on it, this is true. How often do you colaborate on individual written peices of history, poetry, songs, prophesy, letters etc? It was not a cohesive patriarichal project, it was simply men responding to their muse.

So you agree the bible isn't perfect? If so, then how could the word of god not be perfect? I've heard from so many 'believers' how the bible is holy and how it is the word of god. And that god is perfect. So how can the bible not be perfect?

See, Nister has argued points that I do not use - or introduced scenarios that I am not defending, and has for the most part used what I see as "generic" anti type arguments which I understand, but that often do not apply to my own statments or Christian walk.

I had only brought up a counter point to your statement Steven - please show me where I introduced scenarios you aren't defending, ect.

And if I ask him to give me something from his own experience to discuss, that just basically doesent happen. Instead I get online links with others agendas and points of view. I ask Neister for his own out of respect, because I in turn have shared my own experiences and points of view in a continuously hostile or at least condescending environement.

In past discussions I have pointed out my own experiences to which you simply dismissed the people I had spoken with on matters of this subject as idiots (your words not mine). And you gave me the impression that you know more about religion than those I had spoken with yet without you having met these people.

So as a Christian how can you call other Christians idiots not having ever met or spoken with them? Ans this is not something from out of the blue. This just happens to go back farther since you are accusing me of bringing up points which you are clearly having trouble remembering bringing up yourself in the past.

[Steven]

Man oh man I can tell this one's gonna go on forever....Q and A time....

Well let's see - that would be incredibly easy to answer. The answer is genetic programing. Single cell organisms also reproduce but you'll never see them at church reading a bible.

Answer: Fair enough but single celled animals or animals in general hardly ponder their existence and pour their emotions and dreams into future generations. Do you really not understand where I was gogin with that?

So you agree the bible isn't perfect? If so, then how could the word of god not be perfect? I've heard from so many 'believers' how the bible is holy and how it is the word of god. And that god is perfect. So how can the bible not be perfect?

Answer: the difficulty here will be in defining perfection I suppose. Because I beleive that the bible is the creative muse of a perfect being - received and recoded by imperfect creatures. Its impact and self sustaining abilities does indeed lead me back to the theory of perfection howecer, and yet I no problme admitting that have yet to witness perfection in this decomposing existence. Therefore at this stretch in my life I can only comprehend "perfect" in terms of God's being as that of being far beyond my own experience, auithority, and understanding. To me its like trying to comprehend "forever" - forever is immeasurable. Or like trying to comprehend any understanding scientific or otherwise, of the Orgin of all thigns, since our own existence is completely finite. I cant really do it. But I have to accept that there is something out there bigger than me.

I had only brought up a counter point to your statement Steven - please show me where I introduced scenarios you aren't defending, ect.

In past discussions I have pointed out my own experiences to which you simply dismissed the people I had spoken with on matters of this subject as idiots (your words not mine).

Answer: Dude, just go back thru a few recent posts. Tell me you dont feel a hint of dumbass flavor in your address of me. Tell me you don't paraphrase basic generic christianeze when you ask me questions. As for the idiots comment - what was being said? If I did that then I was wrong, I've no problem with that. Who did I call and idiot and why?

And you gave me the impression that you know more about religion than those I had spoken with yet without you having met these people.

Answer: again I wish I had a concrete example but yes - I DO often think that I dig a little deeper into not only biblical texts and historical scenarios but the example of Christ himself than the average Christianeze Joe, or even the average anti-christianeze Joe. No I havent met those people, all I can do is bounce off of what you post and vice versa.

And no Im not a theologian or a know it all - but I do my homework Dude, because I have a lifestyle built on it. I dont do it to be superior - I do it because I hunger to understand certain things, and because it often opens up the particular dialogue being covered. I also do it because as I have said before - I am not "religeous" - I am personally searching. I look at more than just the text being discussed. I look at the social impact. I look at teh culture of the times and the scenarios that text is being introduced to. I look at who was in power at the time, how the region sustained itself with commerce, what some fo teh surrounding pagan culture was and how that might impact the times, I look at lots of things. I've been accused of not thinking for myself and thats just not true. But in fairness - I often ask questions right? I often ask you or anybody else to give me somethign more to chew on correct? Why would I do that unless I was trying to understand your point of view with greater depth? Thats where I get a little confused with your allegations of my being dismissive....if I come off that way then I'm willing to look at it and consider whats fueling my approach but that's nto what I'm trying to do.

and bear in mind - I'm pretty much your lone ranger in here with this stuff. You have many people in your camp. I have me. It can get a little heavy at times.

[Steven]

So as a Christian how can you call other Christians idiots not having ever met or spoken with them? Ans this is not something from out of the blue. This just happens to go back farther since you are accusing me of bringing up points which you are clearly having trouble remembering bringing up yourself in the past.

I accidently missed this part...

Fair question.

Wish I had context to refer to - but - sometimes Im an asshole.

and sometimes Im a bit proud.

and sometimes, I'm right.

and sometimes - other christians simply spout off rhetoric and rhyme and are part of the Christianeze machine which I loathe.

I should add that "as a Christian how can you...." (and then insert whatever you want):

Dude, my name is Steven Urenda. I'm a 40 year old mexican american us army veteran offshoot from a fucked up family former addict long time married republican taxpaying blue collar joe schmoe with two cats.

As a christian I am all of that above mentioned shit.

being a christian does not negate who and what I am.

and who and what I am I lay out for everybody to do with what they will, I dont hide any of my shit or play games or play it safe or drop hints or any of that. This is me, this is what I think, this is what I say.

I'll always be that way.

beleive it or not, sometimes there is room for a hack like me in the Kingdom of God.

There's probably room for you too.

[Der Nister]

Answer: Fair enough but single celled animals or animals in general hardly ponder their existence and pour their emotions and dreams into future generations. Do you really not understand where I was gogin with that?

Yes I understood you but I was answering your question - humans reproduce because of genetic programing. Basic survival. And yes if you like - that is my belief.

Answer: the difficulty here will be in defining perfection I suppose.

Well I believe that perfect means - without flaws. That is the main reason I no longer accept religion - it is full of flaws, double meanings - incorrect accounts about events - ect (and no I'm not going to go into those items, sorry). I was always told growing up (by those in local churches) how the bible is the perfect holy word of god. Now as an adult - I see the imperfections. The illusion is gone for me.

Answer: Dude, just go back thru a few recent posts. Tell me you dont feel a hint of dumbass flavor in your address of me. Tell me you don't paraphrase basic generic christianeze when you ask me questions. As for the idiots comment - what was being said? If I did that then I was wrong, I've no problem with that. Who did I call and idiot and why?

If I gave you the wrong impression then I apologize. As for the idiot statements - those go back to about a year ago and I can't recall where they are but I remember reading them and it pissed me off.

This is my take on Christianity - it's something that when you become a part of it - really those people need to realize they should hold themselves to higher standards and what I see is a group of people that aren't any better than the people they point fingers at and call sinners.

How can I respect that?

I feel I have explained very well why I have given up on religion - it's not only Christianity although - it has mostly been Christians that have shown me that can't follow a few simple rules from the bible. With every (I mean every) Christian I have worked with or known they have been - self righteous, sinners, judgmental, accusatory, quick to anger - the list goes on. They weren't all friends or family - some were people that I attended church with (when I did go) others were people that knew people I knew. It's a turn off to the whole idea of being a part of anything of that nature.

I worked with a Muslim and he gave me no grief, didn't condemn me for not sharing his beliefs and was very easy to be around. I respected his right to his faith (and yours too) so long as it isn't forced on me or I'm condemn me for being different. Because really, I can't accept that a creator loves me but is willing to condemn me to a painful brutal eternity.

I love my child - but if she did things I wasn't happy with I certainly wouldn't wish the worst on her. I would still love her.

[Steven]

Yes I understood you but I was answering your question - humans reproduce because of genetic programing. Basic survival. And yes if you like - that is my belief.

Well I believe that perfect means - without flaws. That is the main reason I no longer accept religion - it is full of flaws, double meanings - incorrect accounts about events - ect (and no I'm not going to go into those items, sorry). I was always told growing up (by those in local churches) how the bible is the perfect holy word of god. Now as an adult - I see the imperfections. The illusion is gone for me.

If I gave you the wrong impression then I apologize. As for the idiot statements - those go back to about a year ago and I can't recall where they are but I remember reading them and it pissed me off.

This is my take on Christianity - it's something that when you become a part of it - really those people need to realize they should hold themselves to higher standards and what I see is a group of people that aren't any better than the people they point fingers at and call sinners.

How can I respect that?

I feel I have explained very well why I have given up on religion - it's not only Christianity although - it has mostly been Christians that have shown me that can't follow a few simple rules from the bible. With every (I mean every) Christian I have worked with or known they have been - self righteous, sinners, judgmental, accusatory, quick to anger - the list goes on. They weren't all friends or family - some were people that I attended church with (when I did go) others were people that knew people I knew. It's a turn off to the whole idea of being a part of anything of that nature.

I worked with a Muslim and he gave me no grief, didn't condemn me for not sharing his beliefs and was very easy to be around. I respected his right to his faith (and yours too) so long as it isn't forced on me or I'm condemn me for being different. Because really, I can't accept that a creator loves me but is willing to condemn me to a painful brutal eternity.

I love my child - but if she did things I wasn't happy with I certainly wouldn't wish the worst on her. I would still love her.

PHEE - LOOK WHAT YOU STARTED ....

this was a good post Dude.

I beleive you on the idiots remark, it sounds like my style, I have a certain flair for these things.

like all people I have to look back in retrospect and own up to my own dumb ass attacks. And I can certainly relate to getting pissed off on this board, although in general I think we've all gotten much better. Its a give and take thing dont you think?

and I can also totally agree with you on your statments about many Christians.

I'll tell you this much dude, it aint no cakewalk, doing what I do, beleiveing what I do, especially since I dont keep my faith nice and snug and warm inside of a church social circle.

Most of my friends are non beleivers, most of my hang outs are definately not church related, and many of my Christian peers have had a hard time with my alleged liberalism and one foot in both worlds approach to the Gospel, but I dont serve them and they are not my final judge. Some fo them however, are very good people, people I admire and respect who have taught me a great deal about personal involvment and the elelment of risk inside your faith. So yes I really do understand the magic of the pointed finger, but not all of us are hypocrites just like not all of you are the enemy. In fact none of you are. I also dont beleive my faith allows me an elevated position among anybody, I have loads of shit in my own closet, and plenty of de-programming of my own to do.

and for Phee: Dinasours on the Ark is a crock of shit.

[BrassFusion]

steven, you constantly credit a major turnaround in your life to your faith (don't make me rummage around for quotes, because I *will* get drunk and ornery and I *will* find them). I posit that *my* lack of faith makes me a better person AND will help me attain more of the kind of success that matters to me out of my life. der nister posited that it was possible that gene simmons' lack of faith helped *him* be more successful, or at the very least, that lacking faith sure didn't hurt him any. and you instead credited gene simmons' success to what... the new york dolls or something? unless you were being sarcastic, yes, that is an extremely arrogant position to take.

[Steven]

steven, you constantly credit a major turnaround in your life to your faith (don't make me rummage around for quotes, because I *will* get drunk and ornery and I *will* find them). I posit that *my* lack of faith makes me a better person AND will help me attain more of the kind of success that matters to me out of my life. der nister posited that it was possible that gene simmons' lack of faith helped *him* be more successful, or at the very least, that lacking faith sure didn't hurt him any. and you instead credited gene simmons' success to what... the new york dolls or something? unless you were being sarcastic, yes, that is an extremely arrogant position to take.

Actually I credited Simmons own natural talent and his surrounding circumstances in the New York rock scene at the time and his ability to work the market. Actually Brass, I answerd that question as a musician who's done some of his own ditch diggin in the biz - I respect what Gene Simmons has done. Maybe I should re-read Nisters question - but I was under the impression that he was asking how "God" should or should not have been be woven into that success.

As an additional example - look up a guy online named Ken Tamplin.

Ken Tamplin is Sammy Hagar's cousin and is well known in "the biz" for haveing an incredible multi octave rock voice and for being a supreme songwriting and guitar talent. Everyone from Motley to Foreiner has checked Ken Tamplin out. Ken has built a lifestyle basically doing underground christian rock albums and for the most part - soundtrack work. In fact the Kiss song "Dominoe" - is actually a Ken Tamplin groove that Gene Simmons used. Tamplin by all rights and talents should be a superstar - but he aint. He still sweats teh bills like local joes do. why? Because God cursed him?

I really dont get all caught up in that sort of thing Brass, which is why I found Neister's question mis applied when directed to me. And yes I have many times credited God for turning my life around, and I've also many times talked about beleiving in fate, and have many times talked about personal responsibility and decision making and reaping and sowing etc... to me its all interwoven.

But again - when it comes to success or - the turnaround Ive talked about personally in my life, it has nothign to do with the sort of question Neister asked me. It has everythign to do with making peace with myself, understanding my calling, gettting and staying clean without being on any sort of program, having a successful marriage, being put in a mentoring position, allowing myself to be mentored, learngin to be a lleader, and basically breaking a long downward sprial pattern in a very disfunctional and violent family history. Those things are internal things though Erin, the success I'm talking about, and that is not (at least in my impression of it) the type of question I was being asked. I'm not waiting for God to give me my record deal and the $$$ coinage because I've dug my own rock and roll ditches for so long...I never equate that to God's responsibility or to my own "goodness" as a Christian. There are no "Good Christians" anymore then there are good democrats or good republicans or good librarians or good mexicans or good Brass Fusions.

I dont have a problem with what you beleive about yourself being secualr or humanist or without God or whatever. I dont get offended by that. I dont have a problem with any suiccess you might acheive and wish you well.

[BrassFusion]

But again - when it comes to success or - the turnaround Ive talked about personally in my life, it has nothign to do with the sort of question Neister asked me. It has everythign to do with making peace with myself, understanding my calling, gettting and staying clean without being on any sort of program, having a successful marriage, being put in a mentoring position, allowing myself to be mentored, learngin to be a lleader, and basically breaking a long downward sprial pattern in a very disfunctional and violent family history. Those things are internal things though Erin, the success I'm talking about, and that is not (at least in my impression of it) the type of question I was being asked.

I'm asking you now. Is it not legitimate for me to claim internal personal successes (not material ones), as a side effect of my own godlessness?

[Steven]

I'm asking you now. Is it not legitimate for me to claim internal personal successes (not material ones), as a side effect of my own godlessness?

of course its legitimate to own your own succeses however they came about and have I really made efforts to dispute anyones successes based on my own personal spiritual choices? Its also legitimite for you to beleive, absolutely, that because you reject any God sort of situation that it has resulted in a better life for you overall. This is YOUR life. Erin has to speak for Erin. All I am trying to do is speak for Steven, when others seem to try to speak for me in describing the lifestyle of a Christian. Maybe I have fucked this up. But all I've ever been trying to do with my points is to bring you my own personal perspective based on my own lifestyle and experiences. I could not tell you what makes you and your life.....I have no clue.

OK so that is the core of my confusion - I feel as if you asking me to defend some sort of charge I've made that I'm unaware of, simply because i have credited "God" for things in my life...I have done so yes, but I truly do not beleive that I've rebuked or discredited any merit of your own because you do not beleive what I beleive. that one I have to challenge Erin. And if Im full of shit then show me and I'll have to take a look at what Im doing and what the end results are.

so my reply in question form to you is:

Is it not legitimate for me to claim internal personal successes (not material ones), as a side effect of my own relationship with what I beleive is God?

I'm trying to get a better feel for how you process.

You sometimes seem to come across as: Well, if yrou saying THIS then in reality your also saying THAT..."

I'm not sure if you think I'm doing so intentionally, like some sort of thinly veiled insinuation or if you think I'm just straight out speaking beyond my stated verbiage or if yoru jsut testing the waters to feel me out.

so I will just tell you because I like you:

whatever I think at the moment I will try to state very plainly, I don't insinuate. Ask me anything you want to be sure of where I'm coming from but try not to help me along in what I'm saying by adding another portion to it - let me do that part, is that fair?

[pharoh]

Wow this thread went way longer than it should have lol

[BrassFusion]

It was when you said that gene simmons' success in no way related to his lack of spirituality, as if it was an impossibility, whether gene simmons ever made that claim himself or not. That's where I got that "idea."

According to my spiritual beliefs, I think you're wrong in believing that a relationship with your god has improved your life. However, I believe it could've had the placebo effect- an imagined connection with god, on your part, could've drastically improved your life. And there's always the possibility that your god DOES exist and DID have a direct impact on everything.

Wow this thread went way longer than it should have lol

Yep. It seems like everyone here thinks the dinos on the ark thing is 'tarded anyway... oh well!

[Steven]

It was when you said that gene simmons' success in no way related to his lack of spirituality, as if it was an impossibility, whether gene simmons ever made that claim himself or not. That's where I got that "idea."

According to my spiritual beliefs, I think you're wrong in believing that a relationship with your god has improved your life. However, I believe it could've had the placebo effect- an imagined connection with god, on your part, could've drastically improved your life. And there's always the possibility that your god DOES exist and DID have a direct impact on everything.

Yep. It seems like everyone here thinks the dinos on the ark thing is 'tarded anyway... oh well!

ok, this made sense to me finally, your remark about Simmons' lack of spirituality being a driving or contributing force to his success... I was not trying to create an impossiblity in this scenario, I just didint get what was being said or asked. Now I do.

and I know you think I'm wrong.

but of course your wrong about that.

(tastes great. Less filling. tastes great. less filling.....)

[Scary Guy]

Wow this thread went way longer than it should have lol

Hey it's better than some of those game threads that go on for 30 pages. This is meaningful, this is more important.