Dinosaurs On Noahs Arc...

[Scary Guy]

They were eaten Jim... with BBQ sauce and mashed potatoes. And...

....yeah I need to go to sleep...

And God gave Noah cryostasis, and all was good.

Dinosaurs today would be AWESOME though. Darwinism would flourish again and they would pick off the slow kids. Screw getting to work on time, just getting to work would be a challenge. Actually we'd probably have learned to live underground at that point. Which would be better in case of alien attack. Because if there is a God then there gets to be Aliens too.

[BrassFusion]

And God gave Noah cryostasis, and all was good.

Dinosaurs today would be AWESOME though. Darwinism would flourish again and they would pick off the slow kids. Screw getting to work on time, just getting to work would be a challenge. Actually we'd probably have learned to live underground at that point. Which would be better in case of alien attack. Because if there is a God then there gets to be Aliens too.

Don't be a ditz, SG. Darwinism is why the Dinos are all dead and we humans run the show.

[Scary Guy]

Don't be a ditz, SG. Darwinism is why the Dinos are all dead and we humans run the show.

No I believe that was an asteroid/evolution.

They didn't die out after all, they just became birds/other creatures.

[BrassFusion]

No I believe that was an asteroid/evolution.

They didn't die out after all, they just became birds/other creatures.

"Darwinism" is in constant effect. The animals that survived the meteorite evolved to the critters running around today. The dinos couldn't handle it, so they died. They didn't just see a meteor closing in and say to themselves, "Fuck! I'm screwed now! I'd better turn into a smaller organism cuz food's gonna be scarce! And becoming warm-blooded would be a great way to survive extreme temperatures!"

[Scary Guy]

"Darwinism" is in constant effect. The animals that survived the meteorite evolved to the critters running around today. The dinos couldn't handle it, so they died. They didn't just see a meteor closing in and say to themselves, "Fuck! I'm screwed now! I'd better turn into a smaller organism cuz food's gonna be scarce! And becoming warm-blooded would be a great way to survive extreme temperatures!"

The asteroid is still only a theory though. Could have been the ice age you know.

[BrassFusion]

The asteroid is still only a theory though. Could have been the ice age you know.

That is true, in which case, small warm-blooded animals were STILL better equipped to survive and propogate... the individuals and species that were not did not... sound familiar?

[Steven]

yours are based around the belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. Sorry I just love pointing that out.

Ah time to go pray to Odin.

that was MY theory?

your if is wrong.

your how is wrong.

your why is wrong.

but your selective sarcasm is in fine form.

[Scary Guy]

Funny I thought it was all kinda spot on, which is why it bared repeating.

[know_buddy_kares]

Sits back and watches Scary guy and steven banter back and forth about something that cannot be proven or disproven and wonder's why either are making a big fuss about it.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Just a minor observation:

In a few places above arguments like "Well my belief in X is rational... because I'm rational." Or "The person delivering the of the argument was an atheist so the argument itself must be godless ."

"Ad Hominem" arguments, Ad Hominem meaning " argument to the person" is very weak as a reason to support a conclusion. The reasoning needs to stand on its own, attacking or supporting the person saying it, while might be (on occasion) minor support or defence of an argument, in general is worthless as a way to find the truth of something.

"Joes ideas on dieting are obviously wrong, he is overweight." or "Joes views on dieting must be correct, becasue he is thin." would be a good examples of crappy ad hominem reasoning.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Sits back and watches Scary guy and steven banter back and forth about something that cannot be proven or disproven and wonder's why either are making a big fuss about it.

The underlying concepts of what they are arguing about are probably the most important questions mankind have ever pondered. Were do we come from? Whats our place in the universe? They may be "currently" unanswerable from a scientific standpoint, but that has not stopped us (mankind) in the past and , until we manage to kill ourselves off, wont stop us in the future.

We are closer now , than we have ever been to having at least some rudimentary understanding of these things. Far more than any previous generations have. Luckily for us some people have been willing to try and answer such things over the centuries , so that we DO have some framework for this stuff.

Also many of the sub-points they are discussing are very answerable, such as "what is a good way to make an argument".

[BrassFusion]

We are closer now , than we have ever been to having at least some rudimentary understanding of these things. Far more than any previous generations have. Luckily for us some people have been willing to try and answer such things over the centuries , so that we DO have some framework for this stuff.

gonna guess that those people are more likely to be paleantologists than anyone who'd make a museum exhibit about noah's ark (with or without dinosaurs)

[know_buddy_kares]

The underlying concepts of what they are arguing about are probably the most important questions mankind have ever pondered. Were do we come from? Whats our place in the universe? They may be "currently" unanswerable from a scientific standpoint, but that has not stopped us (mankind) in the past and , until we manage to kill ourselves off, wont stop us in the future.

We are closer now , than we have ever been to having at least some rudimentary understanding of these things. Far more than any previous generations have. Luckily for us some people have been willing to try and answer such things over the centuries , so that we DO have some framework for this stuff.

Also many of the sub-points they are discussing are very answerable, such as "what is a good way to make an argument".

Well honestly, IMO... even if we do figure it out, how is that going to help us fix what problems we currently have gotten ourselves into? Any solution I can think of for our current problems has nothing to do with figuring out where we came from... we came from somewhere, yeah i'm curious, but i'm not going to pin my soul up to a certain religious wall in the name of faith, i'm not even going to do the same with it to science. We may be the closest we've ever been, however if there's still museums portraying Noah's ark with dinosaurs on it... that's a pretty clear hint to me that we're still a long ways away from the true enlightenment we seek (the human race as a whole)

[Steven]

Well honestly, IMO... even if we do figure it out, how is that going to help us fix what problems we currently have gotten ourselves into? Any solution I can think of for our current problems has nothing to do with figuring out where we came from... we came from somewhere, yeah i'm curious, but i'm not going to pin my soul up to a certain religious wall in the name of faith, i'm not even going to do the same with it to science. We may be the closest we've ever been, however if there's still museums portraying Noah's ark with dinosaurs on it... that's a pretty clear hint to me that we're still a long ways away from the true enlightenment we seek (the human race as a whole)

your always going to have extremists in any camp.....if you use this philiosphy then you may as well never try to get to center because there will always be more evidence of what proves distasteful to you, this is the human element that is always consistent.

likewise, the probelms that we've gotten ouselves into....honestly are they that unique or new? Seems to me that mankinds progression allows him a certain creative freedom to do what he's always done to himself and the next generation takes it from there. I see no utopian evidence, no reason to buy into enlightenment theories. We corrupt and are corruptible at almost any level of measurement. The more brilliant we become, the more brilliantly we consume.

Knowing where i come from centers on knowing my purpose. Understanding my purpose means understanding my own generational programming and the effects of the environements in which I was raised. Accepting that I am a flawed creature (and trust me I dont need the bible to convince me of that, the 6 oclock news does a pretty good job) allows me to set aside some personal self defense stigmas in favor of connecting with others and understanding their needs. All of those thigns combined has led me to a great deal of personal problem solving.....and its not done "in the name of" in the way that you may think. Its actually much more "because of".

[know_buddy_kares]

your always going to have extremists in any camp.....if you use this philiosphy then you may as well never try to get to center because there will always be more evidence of what proves distasteful to you, this is the human element that is always consistent.

I've taken everything in life with a grain of salt. And depending on how I've felt inside, I either go with it and take it as a step towards figuring my place out for myself, or disregard it if I personally cannot agree with the whole feel and concept of it. Alot of things have personal biased to their teachings when it comes to any religeon, I'm not saying shame on this, but it is human nature, we all do this to some extent. Some are just sillier than others, such as dinosaurs on an ark. I feel that really, the only way to get any real answers is to search yourself, we all have our own little unique way of thinking and relating lessons in life.

likewise, the probelms that we've gotten ouselves into....honestly are they that unique or new? Seems to me that mankinds progression allows him a certain creative freedom to do what he's always done to himself and the next generation takes it from there. I see no utopian evidence, no reason to buy into enlightenment theories. We corrupt and are corruptible at almost any level of measurement. The more brilliant we become, the more brilliantly we consume.

Yes see, the human race as a whole has NEVER been able to get out of this circle. History has kept repeating its self as alot lost the whole point to begin with. I do agree that the human race as a whole are closer to figuring it out than ever before, however there's still clear signs that we are still a very long way off as a whole. My whole point that you made this rebuttal to I think was misunderstood. Knowing what primordial soup we origionaly crawled from won't help us fix our current world political problems. Our place? It's actually quite simple, we are a part of nature, and we let our ego's grow to big. We need the air to breath, the trees to make it oxygenated, water, and the same things every other living thing depends on to live. We aren't above it, we are a part of it. It's that simple to me. As for our place spiritually with whatever god you wish to believe in is completely up to the individual. I won't say neither is right or wrong. Just in my own findings, one thing i'm confident in stating as a fact is there is absolutely NO undeniable truth to a god's existence or the lack of a god's existence. Where someone would go from there is his/her own personal choice in the matter. Like I mentioned in the last, there is always corruption when communicating such views from one to another, so it should be a personal journey in my opinion.

Knowing where i come from centers on knowing my purpose. Understanding my purpose means understanding my own generational programming and the effects of the environements in which I was raised. Accepting that I am a flawed creature (and trust me I dont need the bible to convince me of that, the 6 oclock news does a pretty good job) allows me to set aside some personal self defense stigmas in favor of connecting with others and understanding their needs. All of those thigns combined has led me to a great deal of personal problem solving.....and its not done "in the name of" in the way that you may think. Its actually much more "because of".

I really am having a hard time seeing why knowing where you came from is understanding your purpose. You can come closer to figuring out your purpose with each moment of life and the lessons you take from these moments. And it is obvious we are flawed. However, in the name of and because of sound like the same thing, just worded differently. Like i can say I'm going to quit smoking pot in the name of the us army, but it's the same as, I'm going to quit smoking pot because of the us army. One just has a catchier ring to it. It's still a reason for your actions.

[know_buddy_kares]

just to add humor, this is what really happened with Noah's Ark

[Der Nister]

and yet to someone such as myself who tends to live and breathe instincutally, its perfectly rational after having worked this lifestyle for as long as I have and being fortunate enough to have yeilded consistently good results.

Constant good results? - ok

Well, as you seem to attribute these "constant good results" because of your "faith" then I'm guessing you would say it's because you are "constantly a good Christian"? - Just curious on that one.

Anywho

Can you then explain why someone, oh say for example - Gene Simmons of Kiss who is admittedly not a Christian, does not believe in God nor Jesus and yet - has prospered in great financial wealth, great health and has a wonderful family be that fortunate. Would his fortune also be because of God even though he denounces religion? Nor does he believe in any higher power.

Or would that be the Satan at work, making his life miserable by giving him everything he wanted?

[Der Nister]

Another great thing about the 'bible' that has amused me for some time now is this.

So the bible says god created everything - and god created lucifer who rebelled against god. Well, the bible says that god is all mighty so, I'm not understanding why god did not do away with lucifer. I'm not talking about sending him/it to hell but destroying lucifer for good. That way - lucifer couldn't bring harm unto god's children.

When you look at it the way the bible wants you to see it and actually put thought into what it says you have to wonder this - why would a god that 'loves us' allow a creature that he/she/it created to harm us 'god's creation' (as the bible says)?

Why would this god allow this hideous creature access to us? Seems to me if this is indeed true then - this god must not be all that powerful. Also, if Christianity were the one true religion, why has it only been around for a little over two thousand years when we clearly know and can prove that man has been around much longer.

None of it makes any sense because the men that wrote the bible were a) not collaborating on it so there are errors and b) assumed that all common people would remain illiterate and depend on those in power to tell them what to think.

But I suppose we are meant to over look these sort of things and just have faith.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Hehe. Welcome to the insanely long thread Nister.

What you listed off there are some of the key, longtime critical arguments against religion in general and Christianity specifically. There are well defined responses to all of that from the Christian side , and then counter responses from the more science minded... then back again from the spiritual side...

One of the many problems with this "discussion" is that even though many of us profess "open mindedness" its actually , i suspect fairly rare. We all have decided one way or another, and basically go around trying to find things to support that decision.

In James Harvey Robinson's book "The Mind In The Making" which is a study of social context and ways of thinking across society at one point he says quote:

"...most of our so-called reasoning consists in finding arguments for going on believing as we already do."

I suspect this is true for the majority of humanity, unfortunately. We are never going to sway the extremists of one camp or another (and extremism isn't quite in the minority that we might think). The only hope is to draw the people on the edges of the extreme toward the center were discussion is possible.

Hopefully we can start with ourselves.

[Sybil]

"...most of our so-called reasoning consists in finding arguments for going on believing as we already do."

I suspect this is true for the majority of humanity, unfortunately. We are never going to sway the extremists of one camp or another (and extremism isn't quite in the minority that we might think). The only hope is to draw the people on the edges of the extreme toward the center were discussion is possible.

Hopefully we can start with ourselves.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I think we are long past the "dinosaurs" question and on to much larger issues... about 2,000 posts ago heh.

If your saying that "reasoning" and "how to reason" and the other things we have been discussing are minor and unimportant... then i'd have to disagree. They are a lot more relevant / important than say.. what your favorite flavor of ice cream is. (which no one would reply to with "that question is irrelevant to my life")

Ignorance is not bliss. Its one of the most dangerous things that exist. Even more dangerous in modern times when one person can cause a lot more damage to humanity than they ever could in the past. Embracing ignorance is a very, very slippery slope. Just because a question is difficult, we should not try to say its irrelevant.

[Sybil]

I like to go back to the original question.

"getting back on task"..

..go from there..

ya know?

I have given this thread alot of thought.

And my response went ALL THE WAY BACK to the beginning.

(i like to try put out fires.)

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I think i was (and probably anyone else reading) a bit confused is that i just had to guess what you were responding to.

The idea that the topic post it at least (mildly) not all that important, is probably partly why the discussion has shifted to more 'important" things. Thus, the more broad discussions that are currently in the works. I think indirectly we all agreed sort of by default, that it wasn't particularly exciting of a subject, and shifted the commentary away from it, to what it is now.

So your now in the same boat (no pun intended) with the rest of us.

...and i worked hard on that post you shit on for no good reason. I'm sad now. You big bully!

[Steven]

Constant good results? - ok

Well, as you seem to attribute these "constant good results" because of your "faith" then I'm guessing you would say it's because you are "constantly a good Christian"? - Just curious on that one.

Anywho

Can you then explain why someone, oh say for example - Gene Simmons of Kiss who is admittedly not a Christian, does not believe in God nor Jesus and yet - has prospered in great financial wealth, great health and has a wonderful family be that fortunate. Would his fortune also be because of God even though he denounces religion? Nor does he believe in any higher power.

Or would that be the Satan at work, making his life miserable by giving him everything he wanted?

your serious with these questions?

First - your "ok" hints at a nice slice of bullshit I assume? before you OK me you may want to find out a little bit about me and what I value. There was actually some merit to that statememnt I made.

Next - this "Good Christian" bullshit. Question to you: when have you ever in the history of my existence in DGN ever heard me talk about being or acknowledging the concept of a "Good Christian"? If anythign I've willfully poked holes in that type of thinking. You lead me to beleive that since I am a "Christian" I should automatically be shelved in a specific place as opposed to paying a littel bit of attention to what I've presented myself to be all of this time.

Or - not. But your asking me questions that dont apply to me.

ANd the Gene Simmons thing, again your being serious?

New York

He's where he's at today because the New York scene had The Dolls and that's about it - the only other big time theatrical Rock and Roll show at the time was Alice Cooper. He had the right schtick at the right time and understood the law of supply and demand which allowed him to capitalyze on his marketing because he's a smart mo fo. I have never equated that to God or Satan. What a waste of time that just was.

[Steven]

Another great thing about the 'bible' that has amused me for some time now is this.

So the bible says god created everything - and god created lucifer who rebelled against god. Well, the bible says that god is all mighty so, I'm not understanding why god did not do away with lucifer. I'm not talking about sending him/it to hell but destroying lucifer for good. That way - lucifer couldn't bring harm unto god's children.

When you look at it the way the bible wants you to see it and actually put thought into what it says you have to wonder this - why would a god that 'loves us' allow a creature that he/she/it created to harm us 'god's creation' (as the bible says)?

Why would this god allow this hideous creature access to us? Seems to me if this is indeed true then - this god must not be all that powerful. Also, if Christianity were the one true religion, why has it only been around for a little over two thousand years when we clearly know and can prove that man has been around much longer.

None of it makes any sense because the men that wrote the bible were a) not collaborating on it so there are errors and b) assumed that all common people would remain illiterate and depend on those in power to tell them what to think.

But I suppose we are meant to over look these sort of things and just have faith.

your not supposed to overlook anythign dude, thats not faith. Thats puppeteering. I respct your question.

and I will only offer you two plausible answers that will not satisfy you.

First: (a question to a question) Why do people bother having children in this world, knowing how difficult and corrupt it is and knowing how many different thigns can present themselves in a tragic manner? Why bother?

Second: (and this is my favorite): I don't know.