If My Brother Dies....

[The_Dark]

Incendiary bombing isn't insane... killing civilians who have nothing to do with a war to save the lives of men and women who signed up to risk their lives is. No human life is more important than any other but some people are willing to lay down their lives. They are called Soldiers. They are adults who made a decision, it's not your right to second guesse that decision.

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

.... Strategic bombing and Incendiary bombings only work on developed modern industrialized societies... not on trashed towns that are only good at producing more and more teenaged muslims.  THere is nothing to burn in Iraq... they build their houses out of stone and dont own enough "crap" (like americans do) for the houses to burn up.... Firebombs dont work on stone rooves... only on shingles and wood....  Name one Strategic bombing campaign that won a war?  Everyone you will think of did not win the war, it just made it harder for the enemy to move stuff around their country..... in every case the war continued and production actually increased.  Im not going to start spouting out my credentials, but I can state with a fact that I have spent much more time and money studying this sort of stuff in College and Graduate School than you have (on the history channel)... so Im not going to argue with you, im just going to end this with a simple, "you are wrong" and need to read more or take a couple classes on the subject.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have studied on this subject and would still argue that while stone may not burn, fuels, people, and whatever they own down there will. Fire has always proven to be a good weapon throughout history regardless of it's design. While it might not be as effective as it was in Japan, under the right wind conditions and careful planning the cities would burn.

Incendiary bombing isn't insane... killing civilians who have nothing to do with a war to save the lives of men and women who signed up to risk their lives is.  No human life is more important than any other but some people are willing to lay down their lives. They are called Soldiers. They are adults who made a decision, it's not your right to second guesse that decision.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you Japanese by chance? Just curious.

My main point is if we're going to kill Iraqi soldiers without just cause, then killing civilians is no different.

[wheresmypiggy]

I have to agree with kevin on that last part.

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

I'm sorry, but if I have 3 people coming at me with guns in a crowd of ten, and I've got a hand grenade, I don't give a shit who dies as long as it's not me. What kind of patriot would rather have his own countrymen die than enemy civilians regardless of justice in an unjust war?

[The_Dark]

We are not fighting the Iraqi military though. They laid down thier weapons without much of a fight. We are fighting resistance fighters from other countries. Most of the insugancy is bieing faught by Syrians and Iranians.

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

We are not fighting the Iraqi military though. They laid down thier weapons without much of a fight. We are fighting resistance fighters from other countries. Most of the insugancy is bieing faught by Syrians and Iranians.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For one there are plenty of Iraqi resistance fighters. For two what difference does it really make where they're from? They are resistence fighters. What are they resisting? Our greed. You're forgetting that we're the bad guys in this war. While I don't agree with our motives, I do support the troops that are fighting over there with no choice in the matter.

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

Incendiary bombing isn't insane... killing civilians who have nothing to do with a war to save the lives of men and women who signed up to risk their lives is.  No human life is more important than any other but some people are willing to lay down their lives. They are called Soldiers. They are adults who made a decision, it's not your right to second guesse that decision.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I disagree with you. I place more value on my life, the lives of my family, the lives of my friends, and the lives of my countrymen.

As I stated earlier, murder is murder. If it's you or me, it's not going to be me regardless of justice.

[The_Dark]

I dont happen to think we are the bad guys. I don't support this war for any of the reasons/excuses that were given before the war started so dont start going off on them. You don't know me and you don't know my motives.

The fact that the vast majority of the people we are fighting are not Iraqis goes to show the Iraqi view point on our being there. I know that doesn't matter to you, it goes counter to your view point so needs to be ignored.

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

This is not about my viewpoint. This is about right and wrong. Would you feel it was right if someone invaded our land, took our leader hostage, and instilled fear and terror in our people telling us we would be forced to live their way of life and lead their people to believe that we had WMD and were not cooperating? Meanwhile they have more WMD than anyone in the world? If this viewpoint were based on my opinions rather than facts, I'd be inclined to be a little more open minded regarding portions of this subject. There are no gray areas in this. What we did was wrong, and what we continue to do is wrong.

Even if these reasons alone are not enough, we could bring religion into it.

"THE AUTHORITIES THAT EXIST HAVE BEEN ESTABLISHED BY GOD" Not only have we taken a country by force, but we have also defied God.

Without a basic concept of right and wrong though, I doubt that argument will hold any validity for you, so let's try it from this angle:

A man is married and has a family. This man's wife is devoted to her husband and family because she feels obligated to take care of him and his family. Another man who believes firmly in equality among genders does not understand why she feels this way, and feels that he is mistreating her. So he goes in and kidnaps him. Members of the innocent man's family, come from outside the home to rid the house of the attacker's family. The attacker feels that he's protecting the innocent family from the innocents so he stays until the threat is gone. Deep down inside the attacker only really wanted what this family had, and that was his primary motive, however he convinced his family that this woman and her children were being mistreated.

How is this war any different?

I would've added also that the attacker also lied and convinced his family that the innocents were a great threat to them, but when the family discovered this lie he only further reinforced the idea that this woman and her children were being mistreated, but that would've only made for a much longer story.

[Scary Guy]

CP I made no personal attack on you, Like VA said you confused a complement with an insult. Rarely do I like what you have to say but that little bit I agreed with.

I do agree with the incendiary bombings, but I'm an asshole like that.

Wow you also post A LOT, don't you have a life?

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

CP I made no personal attack on you, Like VA said you confused a complement with an insult.  Rarely do I like what you have to say but that little bit I agreed with.

I do agree with the incendiary bombings, but I'm an asshole like that.

Wow you also post A LOT, don't you have a life?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Eh not today. I've been without a car for a couple months, and will be until this weekend. I run a couple of businesses and am usually preoccupied with them, but I'm taking a break today.

The suggestion that my IQ has gone up since posting here was not taken as a compliment at all. My viewpoints on both forums are not any different. Though my opinions may not be popular ones, I will defend and support them with facts even if I must beat dead horses. I sometimes forget that people are more influenced by the media, hollywood, etc than I thought they were, and perhaps should sugarcoat things a little more and present my opinions in a less "offensive" way. I was never a big TV buff myself, and always preferred books, my spirituality, and life experience to tell me how to live my life. I don't care about fashion, I know very little about who is famous or what movie is coming out. I don't know which famous couples broke up this week, and I don't really care. If it doesn't pertain to human behavior, the betterment of society, or me directly, I'm usually not interested.

While I do enjoy entertaining myself at clubs, I try to minimize on entertainment. There are a lot of people who suffer here in Detroit, and when I get my vehicle back I plan on spending some of my free time helping them out. If anyone's interested in joining me in this, feel free to PM me.

[Shade Everdark]

All right, folks, this thread's gone quite far afield, and it needs to go back to the subject at hand, that is to say, Farril's brother. If not, I'll have to close this thread down. Feel free to make spinoff threads and discuss to your heart's content.

I also feel the need to remind all of you who have been active in this thread lately to reread the "play-nice" rules. Insults toward other members of DGn are not tolerated. I expect not to see any defense or explanation, only a modification in the tenor of posts.

That is all.

[The_Dark]

And yes it is your viewpoint... Right/Wrong/Grey.. all subjective. You don't know any better than anyone else what is "right" and what is not. That's whats scary about your "movement". You think you know whats good for this country and your willing to destroy it to make it better... even if the people don't agree with you. Your better than what we have why?

You might want to leave Religion out of the equation with Iraq.. Saddam's regiem was secular.

[the eternal]

First of all let me say, thank you crunchy pickle and paper hearts! If it wasnt for you too, I might not have a job....I spend wayyyy too much time doing long ass posts refuting people, and not working.

That said, Im at my desk right now :doh :doh :doh

I agree with most of what PH and CP have to say except, and I HATE to say this, I think CP was a little harsh.

The reason why BS9 pissed me off in another thread and I still have tremendous respect for The Dark was their approaches to responding.

I am a very passionate person, and a very emotional person, but sometimes we have to take a step back and realize that our anger should be directed at the issue, not the person.

I strive (and often fail) at making cogent arguments, but when it's gets hostile, it's game over for me.

(Big ups to PH for keeping it clean)

I don't want to get toooo political in my post since I think you guys have done a good job yourselves (and Im having more fun as a spectator)

but I will say Dark is right about most people everywhere wanting democracy, unfortunately it's not as simple as the Bush jingoism spits out.

There are a lot of things about western democracy that many Iraqis despise. Let's face it, most of the world hates America and much of what we represent and this has increased exponentially over the past few years with Bush.

The democracy they propose may be very different from what we know as a republic here. Although, I can't think of anything better than a democracy,

Russia's a bigger mess after Communism fell apart,

opium and al queda are back on the move in Afghanistan,

and we, the US of frickin A

favor military dictatorships around the world (like Pakistan)

over Venezuela because it has pro-poor policies and wont play ball with the World Bank

(because Venezuela saw what a raw deal African countries got when they did)

Im also fearful that minority groups (religious factions, women, etc) will be marginalized to the point that this war will spiral without end.

The worst thing that could happen is if some fundamentalist constitution mirroring the extreme views of (our friend and ally) Saudi Arabia or <gasp> the Taliban

gets agreed upon.

New poll: only about 1/3 of Americans still support Bush's handling of Iraq.

Anyway, here I am going on politically when I promised not to.

Since you guys duked it out over issues, I want to take on what truly offended me (and Pomba Gira) the content of the earlier posts.

Before I do, I want to make a quick response to Vater's well spoken point (which was said in one way or another by others, I just liked the way he put it)-

Yes, there will always be reasons for people to die. There will always be important causes and major wars.

But not every war/cause has the same importance. I just hate that liberals are thought of as unpatriotic because we speak out against certain military actions, yet somehow,

blind faith in our government-----no matter what we do,

is the most red, white, and blue you can be.

Now I know Vater doesnt feel this way but the result is the same.

In a perfect world, the military's job would be to protect our country from terrorism and ensure freedom for the masses,

and to die so the rest of us may enjoy big macs,

and to endure torture so we can watch Will and Grace,

and watch over the oil belt so we can enjoy Hummer's, etc etc etc

But, let's face it this is NOT a perfect world.

This is NOT a perfect country and certainly

This is NOT a perfect administration.

See, things aren't just black and white and what the military's job often becomes is:

To carry out the orders of the commander-in-chief

(Don't play a semantics game about congressional approval, they're a fucking rubber stamp and any senator that dares to think otherwise probably won't have a job next term-occasional radical reps may be okay.)

Now, of course, the commander-in-chief has to consult with the joint chiefs of staff.

And of course, military action is supposed to be a last resort ,

but it just doesn't always play out that way.

I would have been happy to serve in the great war. I would have been proud to serve in WWII.

Honestly, you couldn't sign me up quick enough to end the Holocaust.

But I would have burned my draft card in Vietnam and if necessary, for Iraq.

Many of the early posts on this thread follow the old British saying (in reference to a soldier who questioned being required to literally walk into certain death)

"Ours is not to question why, ours is but to do and die" (may be a slight paraphrase)

Well, I don't agree.

I think we should question why.

I think military action should be a last resort.

And I don't think it's unfair or unpatriotic to question that.

And don't for a second say, "I don't support the soldiers"

The way I look at is this:

If my friend's dad told him to jump in front of a bus, and my friend said okay, I would still get very angry and question why,

even though it was his dad and he agreed.

Because I need to know a reason why, oh why, he should jump in front of a bus.

Well, Bush, is this country's daddy, and above the UN (who wanted to continue sanctions) and above the rest of the world's wishes...

and over 1800 people have been run over.

I (my opinion) don't feel it's justified, and I feel that it's my patriotic duty to fight against this war BECAUSE

I DONT WANT ANOTHER HUMAN TO DIE FOR AN UNJUSTIFIABLE WAR (in my opinion)

I don't want money flowing over there,

when Detroit is a fucking shithole and almost all the states have red ink because the money we could have asked for, the surplus we once had,

is flowing to Iraq.

(No one makes this connection. Billions of dollars going to Iraq=

Billions of dollars in shortfall to states=

Billions of dollars NOT going to social service programs=

our kids not getting the education/afterschool programs/student loans they need)

And PM to the Dark- that is great that you're better off than you were 8 years ago.

I like you .

Dont take my compliment as disengenuous.

That said.

Most people in Michigan arent.

We have the highest unemployment rate in the country, and many of the programs that could turn it around are not doing their job, because

THEYRE UNDERFUNDED (or bankrupt)

Dammit dammit dammitt. I said I wouldnt get political

Oh well.

My point simply was, you can support your troops and your country by protesting the war.

Just because your friend or your brother signed up for something that is dangerous, doesnt mean you have to agree.

( which it seemed to me the bulk of the early posts were suggesting)

It doesnt mean you have to support who put him in harms way.

And it doesnt mean you have to lie down as people here struggle because of it.

Because---

there is NO greater act in the universe than pledging your life to protect the freedom and livelihood of others

AND

there is NO greater injustice

than abusing that pledge and needlessly putting others in harms way for your own gain.

THAT is why Im against the war.

THAT is why I want the soldiers to come home and

THAT is why I and PH are no less patriotic than GOC or Dark or Soulrev for seeing this and wanting it to stop.

I love them. I respect them. I will salute them when they come home.

But, I'm sorry, until I get a better fucking reason than what I've heard up until now

I dont want any more soldiers volunteering to jump in front of a bus.

(This again is just my opinion. Nothing personal against any of you for serving.)

[Brenda Starrr]

All right, folks, this thread's gone quite far afield, and it needs to go back to the subject at hand, that is to say, Farril's brother.  If not, I'll have to close this thread down.  Feel free to make spinoff threads and discuss to your heart's content.

I also feel the need to remind all of you who have been active in this thread lately to reread the "play-nice" rules.  Insults toward other members of DGn are not tolerated.  I expect not to see any defense or explanation, only a modification in the tenor of posts.

That is all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed.

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

And yes it is your viewpoint... Right/Wrong/Grey.. all subjective. You don't know any better than anyone else what is "right" and what is not. That's whats scary about your "movement". You think you know whats good for this country and your willing to destroy it to make it better... even if the people don't agree with you. Your better than what we have why?

You might want to leave Religion out of the equation with Iraq.. Saddam's regiem was secular.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As Shade suggested, I think we should get back to the topic at hand and perhaps discuss this further on another thread. The only thing I'm closing with on this thread is that I've never suggested destroying this country. You know very little about my "movement" or it's supporters, which is why I suggested you go to a meeting. My "movement" needs the support of the majority anyways for it to work, and so far you're the only person I've even discussed some of the ideals behind it who has attacked it. Yet still, you know very little about it, it's cause, it's purpose, and how it will benefit you and America.

At best I can agree that I think you're wrong and you think I'm wrong. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing. Onto another thread.

[the eternal]

For the record, I post sloooowwwwwly, and was typing when Shade's message came on, and so Im sorry that even when I came on to redirect this thread, I went off too.

These threads are like a succubus sometimes. There seems to be no escape.

And yes, let's play nice.

Anyone up for a game of gin rummy???

[the eternal]

Will anyone join me?

FarrIL ----

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

FarrIL, the eternal ----

New topic is posted here. Sorry Farril. =(

[Steven]

Now I don't mean to disrespect any soldiers here by any means.  It's not their fault that they're following orders for a country that would send them to their death if it meant more money for big business.  However, most soldiers don't sign up to protect us.  They sign up because they're unsure of their futures, and the military provides a lot of benefits such as GI Bills, job training, etc.  I'm sure there are quite a few that only enlisted to serve their country, but it's just sad that we consider them disposable enough to send them to die for unjust causes.  Whether it be the rubber industry in Vietnam or the oil industry in the middle east, they are not sent out to serve and protect us and our freedoms.  They're sent out to satisfy the greed of corporate America.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pickle,

your a smart guy.

you do your homework, which I repsect.

You are passionate - which I also respect.

Take it (if you can) from someone who has let his own passion get the better of him in presenting his points of view: Respect Your Audience.

You make worthwhile points - but you lose in the translation because you have a tendencey to deliver it in a belittling manner.

Thats not a big deal to see coming from certain people who just like to start trouble - but its hard to watch coming from somone who tries hard to do good, to make changes, and to influence others. Remember there are good and bad leaders. Respect yourself by respecting some of these people. And respect your vets and soldiers too. We (the soldiers) did not ask you to be our voice - to publically proclaim what we did, or why we do what we do. You can do your research - its admirable, but your not a soldier - please do not speak for soldiers, I do not speak for you.

Your family has a military history. I'm sure you've learned a great deal from that. But until you've strapped on your weapon and made the sacrifices that these men and women do - there is a great deal that you simply do not understand, and you never will from the sidelines. This is why Vets have an unspoken "thing" between them. That is why we love our country - our duty - our freedom - our points of view - even if they seem limited or short sighted to you - we PAID for that freedom and point of view. We lost relationsips and family for it, faced financial hardship, battled desperate loneliness, and broke our bodies for it.

What you also fail to understand - is that the life of a soldier is more often than not - a life of great personal compromise and re-discovery. We go in as one person - along the way we become someone else, hopefully - for the better. Statistics never show this very real dynamic. Regardless of what you read - those voices are seldom heard.

And finally - despite how you feel about Iraq (and in many ways I'm inclined to agree wtih you) - the might of the American Military and its vast resources - its very existence - binds this freedom togethor that we have. Yes we are hated. Yes politics are always involved. Yes mistakes have been made. But the existence of the American soldier - the existence alone - allows you to bask in the freedom you now enjoy.

Steven

[Troy Spiral (13)]

=)

[The_Dark]

Steven,

Yes, brother, yes.

Mark

[the eternal]

That was beautiful.

[Vater Araignee]

Yea yea yea I went back over it I'm done

========================================================

Wow

Steven

wow

[float]

thanks to the soldiers

I'm certainly not out their doin it

I owe them my freedom

at least my legal freedom in this world