What Type Of Government Would You Have..

[Steven]

that's an old picture from a couple years ago!? my hair's still long (getting longer/too long!?) & black, at least for a little while longer! (i may go back to the short blond look soon tho; i might keep it long & try out some fom of red too - haven't decided!!)

AHA!!!

I like the outlaw biker look you been sportin bro - wait till that shits falling out like mine is before you buss it all off again!! (although the red idea sounds cool)

[Fierce Critter]

...I'm not talking about everybody on the planet. I'm not talking extremes. I'm talking your average person.

And the average 40 year old by virtue of having lived twice as long as an average 20 year old has, unrefutably, more to go on.

Not everyone on this board is average. We've all come to learn that DGN is rife with people who have lived far, far outside the norm. Which may be why it's a more difficult point to get across here.

Repeated for clarity on my NON black/white stance on all this. DGN is a group of "not your average Joe" types for the most part, so I'm not surprised to be so strongly refuted. I still stand by my viewpoint, but maybe I should have used the average tag earlier. Because there is precious, precious little of which I think in absolutes.

And, by the way, Steven - you're speaking just fine on my behalf. Thank you, carry on.

[Daniel]

Deleting off topic post. Sorry! Do continue with your thread derail.

[BrassFusion]

I've always liked the idea of clinical immortality... like where we've advanced enough in medicine that we can do brain transplants into farmed bodies and technically live forever.

Maybe the problem with that is that the old people will never get senile, sick, or dead, and they'll just keep the "big brother/sister" mentality over everyone else: "I'm older than you, so I must be right."

[Kit Kat P]

I'd probably just let each state rule it's self. Since having lived in several of them, I have learned they each so unique.

[Steven]

Again, you spent 80% of your post discussing me, what I understand and what you think or do not think about me. I am not interested in this conversation. If you want to move the debate from the topic which I have exhaustively covered from all appropriate angles, and want to spend time justifying your ad hominems.... well, I'll have to wrap it up. =)

However, I'll answer some questions and address a few concerns before I exit this thread.

Maybe. I generally assume people who take pride in what they are saying are not careless and watch for those simple typos. Sorry for that mistake.

You certainly do not need to speak for Camille as I know she meant no disrespect. Nor did I believe you did. Nor am I "like" you. If you're a 40-something-to-be, you aren't much older than I am. But, I am an upper level management, professional guy, with extensive experiences doing lots of things in lots of places. I do not feel like posting my "resume" of intense life experiences, however. Sorry.

Another error in judgment on your part. I've been chatting with FC on this board, and off the board, for years. I don't know, maybe since 2002? Earlier? I don't know. I forget, it has been too long. We have definitely not always seen eye-to-eye on things, but I don't feel that either of us dramatically misunderstands each other. If there is a problem, it is not lack of understanding, I assure you. She communicates effectively. I get the "nuances".

A common mistake people make. I do not write passionately or poetically when I discuss issues. I write strongly, perhaps, but I also write objectively, and dispassionately. A lot of people interpret that as hostility or "anger". I assure you, this is not the case. I used to pepper my posts with smiley faces and jokes, but I always feel superficial doing that, and expect the audience to understand that tone is generally missing from internet forums. I can spend extra time flavoring up my posts, but why do I need to do that for a group of cultured and intelligent human beings?

I have left this board for lengthy periods of time because of the tendency of people to not "get it". I come back every once in a while because I like a lot of the people that do "get it". When I can go to any number of other message forums and not have the problems I do here, it is tempting to just write this forum off. Maybe I should just post in non-hot item topics exclusively on DGN? I don't know, we'll see how this return goes.

In case it isn't obvious already, I have a great amount of respect for Camille. I will say no more on that subject.

This is another assumption of yours. I have little interested in "properness", however! If you expect to communicate and debate a complicated issue, and expect to be understood, you should take the time to speak clearly and efficiently. If not, it is unreasonable for you to expect people to always understand what you're saying. The complaints I have about your personal carelessness in communicating are not meant to be criticisms, but again, it is just me objectively pointing out my source of confusion. There is no eye contact or body language on a text only medium, so you must make up for that in concise language.

Let me give you an example of the sort of thing I am talking about. What does this sentence mean:

"The chicken is too hot to eat."

Does that mean the chicken was just pulled out of the oven and would burn your mouth? Or does it mean the chicken is in a swelteringly hot chicken coop, and doesn't feel like eating? Or is it saying the chicken is too damn sexy to be eaten? My primary complaint is that you use a lot of sentences like this. They are ambiguous and could mean a lot of things. There is nothing technically improper about this sentence, it is simply ambiguous. "I have been where you are" is one of many of those sentences you post. I have little use for formality or properness, but precision is beneficial if you want people to understand your views on complicated subject matter.

Again, I assure you, I do not think anything is simple. In fact, my whole argument above is that the great dynamics of the human experience cannot be broken down to a simple "older people are smarter and wiser than younger people" rule. It will be true in some cases, and not true in others. I personally reject the premise that this is a good rule to allow you to accurately (or fairly) predict behavior in people. I could be wrong, but nothing anyone in this thread has said has done anything close to convincing me otherwise.

As far as the first part of your question... I am not sure what you mean. Are you talking about, say for example, a David Lynch film? I'd be willing to be there are as many interpretations of what "Eraserhead" means as there are people who have watched it. I have no problem with this, and don't really see how it applies to this situation. I love that people are different, too, but when you're talking about objective information, "color" and "individuality" really have no meaning. Just because you don't feel a hammer will fall when you drop it does not mean that it won't. Just because you'd like Kool Aid to cure diabetes does not mean it will.

I could argue that you have been, with all of your assumptions about me, and your condescending tone in trying to explain to me the in's and out's of very simple concepts. To me, it is almost like "Does this guy really think anyone is that stupid to need to explain that?"

But, I'm not that much of a wee sensitive lad, and have no problem with anything potentially condescending you have said.

For what it is worth, I simply was not making a judgment call about you one way or the other. Maybe you have a reason, maybe you do not. It is irrelevant to me. If you do, great. If not, also great.

Now I'm going out on a limb and agreeing with myself.

Absurdity and poor logic, cop outs and arguments....

This might be you being sensitive. You have stated you do not like formalities, so why worry that you are using poor logic? Arguing is what we are doing. We aren't having a fight. You can call it a debate if you like, but I generally use the word "argument". And absurdity is beautiful in the right context. Salvador Dali dwelled in the realm of the absurd, and his work is next to the divine.

Daniel do what you have to do man, that's all I ever do. nobody (at lest not me) needs to conquer in here, and nobody (ESPECIALLY me) is asking anything of you. I have a tendency to have these sorts of "run ins" if you will with the more linear thinkers of the group. But I'd like to think that all of us have learned from one another. For example Mike (Torn) is a buddy. We've had fun togethor in the past. I like him, I respect him. he wont answer my hair questions but I trust he and I will get to know each other more over time. Brass (Erin) is also a friend, we've had some doozies between us - but that girl has depth and can REALLY make me laugh sometimes. Incidently I like the way you post and make your arguments.

I've been posting on internet forums since before they have existed on the WWW. That is, I was a regular Usenet poster long before HTTP bulletin boards existed, including alt.gothic, rec.music.industrial and so on... I have been on chat rooms, journals, blogs, IRC, ezboard, you name it. There was a time I regularly used Unix "talk", lynx, Pinemail and local modem dialup BBS's. Hell, I have even been on DGN since it was very young. I've had "run ins" with extremely famous people over the years, as well as with some seriously brilliant people. My point is that I understand the conversational dynamics, and chemistry of people and how it applies to internet conversation. So much so, I could probably write a book on it, even. I read into the most subtle nuances in language and speech.

Part of why my last paragraph may have sounded shitty and terse is because I did not want this thread to go where it did: a conversation about you and me. I even pleaded with you to not take it there. I love debate, but if you are confused by the way I discuss things, please send me a private message and maybe we can clear up any miscommunication and get back to the topic at hand here. My point is : Stick To The Topic and do not shift it to theories and criticisms about me, what I understand or do not understand. Instead of focusing on me, take my statement, correct it, cite sources, use logic, or whatever. I mean, that is all basic ad hominem anyway, and should always be avoided in debates. The source of information does not change the accuracy of the information.

I assure you, I'm much more easy going and laid back than my use of language implies. I write strongly with powerful language, but I make a serious effort to be concise and to not be needlessly fluffy. Whether I am successful or not, well, results certainly vary. =) In "not so serious" threads, you'll likely find I do nothing but be preposterously silly. But, this has deviated from the OT so much that I am afraid I will not be able to continue the discuss in this thread. This is all for now. =)

Hi Camille.

thank you for the kudos, I have this wild feeling that you get it that I get it.

Well, did we get anything done in here Daniel?

I really dont know. You've put alot of effort into laying out the groundrules on how you think conversations ought to take place, and what is respectable in terms of general technique and etiquette....

i can respect that, admittedly its not my cup of tea, but I'm understanding you much better now. No offense (seriously) but I write and think and communicate only as Steven does, not as Daniel does, so that being said you do your ad hominem thing, and I promise not to try to direct you in terms of how it should take place, and when and where it is appropriate and how to build reference points. In return I'll continue on with my general sawtooth method of convoluted wordscapes and who knows? we might just meet in the middle one day.

By the way I didint realize that you were pleading with me, I didint even realize that we had moved to that degree of rancor. I simply thought I was just starting to piss you off, and I thought (seriously) that it was YOU who were being a bit snide and condescending and that you seemed to feel the need to "prove" yourself to me - you dont need to, I buy the fact that your a smart guy. Personally, I have NOT been on the WWW and involved with the degree of online and or famous conversations that you have. In my case, I have simply been speaking english for about 39 years (I deducted 2 years on mom's teet) with no time spent as a hermit, so I suppose that I had this crazy notion that that qualified me somehow in the world of interpersonal communication. Yes I am being sarcastic. Lighten up that was at least that much (***) funny.

Im going to go have a popscicle now.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Wow... is that done yet? that was like.. two pages of unnecessary.

You can look it up if you like.. but as humans get older, their brain functions change.

Our brains build new neural pathways till the day we die.The more the brain and body are stimulated.. the more neural pathways are created.

You can deny it all you like. As we age, our brain functions get better.. we can process more bits of information into a coherent thought. We can process more pieces of the puzzle that is life. Each Neuron in your brain can be connected to tens of thousands of other nuerons.. each able to process 200 calculations per second... and every day you create new neurons and new connections.

[BrassFusion]

Wow... is that done yet? that was like.. two pages of unnecessary.

You can look it up if you like.. but as humans get older, their brain functions change.

Our brains build new neural pathways till the day we die.The more the brain and body are stimulated.. the more neural pathways are created.

You can deny it all you like. As we age, our brain functions get better.. we can process more bits of information into a coherent thought. We can process more pieces of the puzzle that is life. Each Neuron in your brain can be connected to tens of thousands of other nuerons.. each able to process 200 calculations per second... and every day you create new neurons and new connections.

No one denied that. Maybe you should go back and read those two useless pages.

[Scales]

Market Anarchy.

[Steven]

No one denied that. Maybe you should go back and read those two useless pages.

hey now.

every page has a use. if anything, at least to wipe our butts with.....

[Fierce Critter]

Our cyber-butts?

[Steven]

Wow... is that done yet? that was like.. two pages of unnecessary.

You can look it up if you like.. but as humans get older, their brain functions change.

Our brains build new neural pathways till the day we die.The more the brain and body are stimulated.. the more neural pathways are created.

You can deny it all you like. As we age, our brain functions get better.. we can process more bits of information into a coherent thought. We can process more pieces of the puzzle that is life. Each Neuron in your brain can be connected to tens of thousands of other nuerons.. each able to process 200 calculations per second... and every day you create new neurons and new connections.

true true and yet that's far too scientificly sound and clincial for me and it strips away all my glory.

for example I've been married for over 20 years.

am I better at now than I was say...9 years ago? Yea, WAY better.

but mostly because I'm less concerend about my own ends, and that sort of thing comes over time in dealing with multiple circumstances, of course there might be some of them friggen nuerons mixed in there too, and shit I thought it was me and my charactor widening a bit....

whats a better example? Oh I know. I've been in management for like.....15 plus years. Am I more effective at leadership and do I display more consistent end results now than I did say.... 5 years ago? Yea, WAY better. But mostly because I've learned to strip out all the non essentials with the exception of the human element in my subordinates and customers and to cycle prioritizing them as individuals so that we actually build relationships because I beleive its relationships that REALLY get thigns done in the end. But again, you realize that shit over time, unless its them dang nuerons again. shit. I get no credit fer nuthin.

[Steven]

Our cyber-butts?

what are you doin up so early???

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

relationships works... and the more relationships your neuron have, the better you think, the more you can remember.. the better you can put the pieces together... weaving a tapestry of thought, emotion, and experience into Wisdom.

[Fierce Critter]

what are you doin up so early???

My sister is taking her car into the shop this morning. I'm picking her up and taking her to work.

Don't worry. I'll be back in bed around 9:00 and sleeping until noon.

Hmmm... how to keep this from being a threadjack, 'cause we all know I never threadjack...

I'd have some kind of proper government in place that would provide decent enough public transportation so that I wouldn't have to waste gas & sleep time doing favors for family like this.

[Steven]

relationships works... and the more relationships your neuron have, the better you think, the more you can remember.. the better you can put the pieces together... weaving a tapestry of thought, emotion, and experience into Wisdom.

awwwwwwwwwwwwww crap.

where oh where is MY glory!!??

[Steven]

My sister is taking her car into the shop this morning. I'm picking her up and taking her to work.

Don't worry. I'll be back in bed around 9:00 and sleeping until noon.

Hmmm... how to keep this from being a threadjack, 'cause we all know I never threadjack...

I'd have some kind of proper government in place that would provide decent enough public transportation so that I wouldn't have to waste gas & sleep time doing favors for family like this.

no no no....I respect your Jack...

I live in Garden City and had to be in the office in Wixom at 6am.

So - in MY Dictatorship - nobody has to get up that early.

EDIT: may I add that i am completely jealous of you today and would LOVE to be in bed right now....

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Your glory is in the fact that those neorons are you.

[Steven]

Your glory is in the fact that those neorons are you.

VICTORY!!!!

[Daniel]

Wow... is that done yet? that was like.. two pages of unnecessary.

You can look it up if you like.. but as humans get older, their brain functions change.

Our brains build new neural pathways till the day we die.The more the brain and body are stimulated.. the more neural pathways are created.

You can deny it all you like. As we age, our brain functions get better.. we can process more bits of information into a coherent thought. We can process more pieces of the puzzle that is life. Each Neuron in your brain can be connected to tens of thousands of other nuerons.. each able to process 200 calculations per second... and every day you create new neurons and new connections.

Actually, humans learn most of what they learn by the time they are 10 years old, or something to that effect. There are fundamental skills, like language, that if not learned by the age of 8, the person may not be able to effectively learn at all. There have been cases where a child is found that was isolated from human contact, and there is an attempt at rehabilitation, particularly in regards to language. They generally can be taught to communicate, but only marginally better than chimps.

Technically, the rate at which you learn and absorb information exponentially decreases as one gets older. Of course, the older person has much more accumulated information and skills that have developed over time, but this is not to suggest that, again, all people's information and skill sets are the same. If so, you've perfectly justified Communism. Good job.

As far as the brain getting better with age: That is a hotly contested topic in scientific circles. There is evidence supporting both directions. Whichever is the case makes no difference to me, and does not change the argument in anyway. However, I would like to point out that things like Alzheimer's seem to be related to the brain aging (not to suggest age is the cause).

Basically, what an older person has is a greater potential to accumulate more information, and more time to learn what to do with it. This is certainly a distinct advantage. However, if everyone is changing their absolute "ONLY" statements to apply strictly to averages, then there is not much to discuss. Unless you believe an average scenario is grounds for applying the rule to all cases by default, which is extremely fallacious, biased and unfair.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I believe you are thinking of the initial creation of neural pathways. Most of which is done by age 5 with odd "bursts" happening until around age 12. Which boils down to that by age 5 your brain has setup the basis for all thought for the rest of your life. Language, math and oddly, the ability to dance and other physical ability's fill in over the next few years during the bursts. It gets harder after this period to learn completely new things.. like say your 25 and have never really done any sports and your friends are trying to teach you to play football... It's going to be harder for you to understand the concepts than if you had played a sport as a child.

Modern studies are finding that most dementia (Alzheimer's and such) can be linked to either decease or idleness. Not using what you have can lead to you not having it.

[Daniel]

It's going to be harder for you to understand the concepts than if you had played a sport as a child.

Absolutely.

Modern studies are finding that most dementia (Alzheimer's and such) can be linked to either decease or idleness. Not using what you have can lead to you not having it.

Indeed. Which is to say, a lot of people are not using it, reiterating a lot of my points.

[BrassFusion]

hell, that's why I teach music lessons to 7-year-olds instead of 37-year-olds. I HATE HATE HATE teaching adults. I'm sure part of the reason I don't do it as well is because I'm used to working with younger kids, but... they think they know everything! they can't just listen, like 75% of kids do. and when they interrupt, it's with statements or closed questions, like, "that can't be right, are you sure, i thought it was like this" instead of the kid type questions that the other 25% of 'em pellet you with: "well, i *get* this, but this doesn't make sense, ok but what happens when you do that with THIS instead of THAT?"

i love those kids. the ones who are always two steps ahead.

anyway sort of back to the topic, and hopefully with a tie-in to the original topic at hand:

if older people were generally wiser than younger people, then wouldn't the odds be somewhat astronomical that our administration is filled with stupid psychotic closeted homosexuals all between the ages of about 45 and 70, AND that their public support is much greater among those above the age of 40 than below?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Absolutely.

Indeed. Which is to say, a lot of people are not using it, reiterating a lot of my points.

I would hazard that the number of people "not using it" is going down. People are far more active physically and mentally in the higher age brackets than in any time in the past.

[Steven]

anyway sort of back to the topic, and hopefully with a tie-in to the original topic at hand:

if older people were generally wiser than younger people, then wouldn't the odds be somewhat astronomical that our administration is filled with stupid psychotic closeted homosexuals all between the ages of about 45 and 70, AND that their public support is much greater among those above the age of 40 than below?

Ah Brass, you certainly ARE entertaining.