Goth Botherers

[Destroit]

Felt it didn't quite fit in the fashion forum, as it delves layers deeper than just clothing imo. In its own way, the issue is definitely a current event even though it is not new news by far. I have experienced this problem at a few goth clubs in the area. I've heard most around here call them "tourists", this author refers to them as "goth botherers". Article in Dominion Magazine:

http://truecultheavymetal.com/index.php/dominion/2011/02/24/goth-botherers

"I don't know, it's just full of freaks" said the blonde in response to her friend's question about what kind of club night it was, as I was stood next to her wearing big white hair extensions, a corset, black lipstick and pvc buckle-down boots. It's not unusual (unfortunately) to get some hassle on the way to a goth night, especially if you've made some effort and the size of your backcombed hair is matched only by the size of your platforms, but it is unexpected to experience it after you arrive.

Norwich's longest running goth night, Exile, is held in the smaller room of a two-room university owned venue. Every Saturday night downstairs is a standard student night, playing everything from Madonna to the Beastie Boys while upstairs alternates it's theme. The entrance fee gets punters into both so when the goth night is on there are some who wander upstairs, usually hoping for a shorter wait for the bar (or toilet) and some stay for a dance or two. Some, however, stay to amuse themselves by either gawking at the ladies (and gents) in pvc or corsets and a few even take to the dancefloor to make fun of the people already on it. These are the Goth Botherers and they make my blood boil.

Recently two 'jeans and t-shirt' lads danced behind one black and buckle-clad fella and copied every move he made, over exaggerating each one, laughing to themselves and occasionally congratulating each other on their efforts. When the song finished and they got bored I watched open-mouthed, growing more incensed by the minute, as they offered to shake his hand. He, completely unaware of what had gone on, quite politely took each of their hands, shook them, smiled and carried on dancing. Later, as I did the goth two-step to some Depeche Mode, one of the lads started to make some joke dance moves towards me. I 'gestured' for him to leave with a raised eyebrow , one hand on my hip and a wave of my other - to his credit he took then hint and headed back downstairs.

Don't misunderstand my anger though, this is not a rant about non-goths, or those who like the music but don't necessarily dress the part. If people are enjoying themselves they are more than welcome to join in and stay as long as they like - it's the ones who think we are fair game, there to be stared at and made fun of. I spend time and effort on my outfit and after getting shouted at from people in passing cars, stared at (and sometimes laughed at), in pubs beforehand I want to be left alone to enjoy myself when I get to my club, with my friends and listen to the music I like.

Most of the time people leave if I stare hard enough at them, if that doesn't work I have asked people to go and not come back, but it seems not many others will do the same. Am I overreacting? Does it bother other goths but they rise above it and ignore them? Would this happen in the punk scene for example? Unlikely I think. And can you imagine what would happen if a couple of goth kids went into a trendy club and did the same? They wouldn't last five minutes, so while I may seem overprotective of my scene it's my evening to feel 'normal' for once and for them to feel out of place for an evening, not the other way round.

Has anyone here ever had an issue with this or perhaps an experience to share? Should goth clubs in the area enforce a loose dress code? Or should goth patrons just handle it on their own accord? How do you personally handle these people?

Felt it didn't quite fit in the fashion forum, as it delves layers deeper than just clothing imo. In its own way, the issue is definitely a current event although it is not new news by far. I've personally experienced this problem at a few goth clubs in the area, CC and Luna stand out the most in my mind. I've heard most around here call them "tourists", this author refers to them as "goth botherers". Article in Dominion Magazine:

http://truecultheavymetal.com/index.php/dominion/2011/02/24/goth-botherers

Has anyone here ever had an issue with this or perhaps an experience to share? Should goth/industrial clubs in the area enforce a loose dress code? Or should goth patrons just handle it on their own accord? How do you (or would you) personally handle these people?

Edited February 24, 2011 by Chernobyl

[candyman]

Most other clubs have dress codes so why not put one it? I talked to some people in Atlanta and they said that happens here too. It also happened at shows in Milwaukee except these people would pay $40 just to get in a fuck up a Type O Negative show and stuff...not much you can do besides dress code if you want to fix it...unless you go the route that some clubs have taken where they won't let the white dudes in...

[pleasurekatzen]

The problem with an enforced dress code is that it would, in a way, punish those club regulars who dress "normal" by mainstream standards- of which there are quite a few. These people patronize City Club (as well as other area clubs) spend their hard-earned money on drinks and don't "bother" anyone. They are there to enjoy themselves just like anyone else.

[LadyKay]

If anyone cares to know what I think. One thing that attracted me to "goth" is the individuality. Wouldn't enforcing a dress cod take away from that? Kind of like "you have to look and dress like everyone else or you don't belong here." That is pretty much what the rest of society has been telling me my whole life. To me a dress cod is nothing more then conformity. If someone is causing trouble and bothering other people, then they can be showed to the door. No jerks allowed would be my rule.

Edited February 24, 2011 by LadyKay

[Destroit]

The problem with an enforced dress code is that it would, in a way, punish those club regulars who dress "normal" by mainstream standards- of which there are quite a few. These people patronize City Club (as well as other area clubs) spend their hard-earned money on drinks and don't "bother" anyone. They are there to enjoy themselves just like anyone else.

Indeed, or for instance my best friend since I was four years old is one super preppy girl, always has been. That's never stopped us from being bffs. It's funny, she won't go to CC because she's afraid of being gawked at and stared down like I am at her clubs. I try to tell her it's not like that but she's still hesitant. My point being, it's people such as her, or others that are friends/family of someone in the scene, who would suffer if a dress code were enforced. Just as I would be insulted if my friend asked me to don myself in Abercrombie just to step into her clubs; I would never insist she dress up like me to go to mine. And yes, with your original point, there are some non-goths who aren't even there with friends or family whom, for whatever reason, just enjoy being there and don't bother anyone by doing so.

Indeed, or for instance my best friend since I was four years old is one super preppy girl, always has been. That's never stopped us from being bffs. It's funny, she won't go to CC because she's afraid of being gawked at and stared down like I am at her clubs. I try to tell her it's not like that but she's still hesitant. My point being, it's people such as her, or others that are friends/family of someone in the scene, who would suffer if a dress code were enforced. Just as I would be insulted if my friend asked me to don myself in Abercrombie just to step into her clubs; I would never insist she dress up like me to go to mine. And yes, with your original point, there are some non-goths who aren't even there with friends or family whom, for whatever reason, just enjoy being there and don't bother anyone by doing so.

[Enishi]

Necto = Frat Boy botherers

CC = Redneck/Creeper botherers

[Simon Bar Sinister]

I'd be banned from every goth night for sure if there were any kind of dress code; I've never dressed the part.

Totally understand the frustration that guy's feeling, though.

[Joey Deadcat]

How about just a "no baseball caps, no loose-fitting jeans" policy? (it would weed out the...whatever-they-ares).

Though, what really bugs me is that this Dominion magazine has a cover story on that Birthday Massacre band instead of O. Children.

Edited February 24, 2011 by Joey Deadcat

[Msterbeau]

How about a don't stand on the dance floor and be a jerk policy? As annoying as being mocked or otherwise bothered by these people is, it's just as annoying when they just stand on the dance floor, taking up space and making it more difficult to enjoy one's self.Then there's the douchboners that hit on every girl hoping for some action. I propose a sign that says: "The dance floor is for dancing". Probably won't do much good. A lot of people still don't get the concept of the left/passing lane on a highway...

[Glory13666]

It sounds like the problem wasn't about how these idiots were dressed by rather how they behaved. I love to dress up personally but my husband does not, he still loves the music and loves to dance. In the past he was going to wear something I knew he didn't feel comfortable in because he felt he should but I made him stop and put on his regular jeans/t-shirt because he should be able to wear what he wants and still have fun without feeling out of place. I see people at City in their normal clothes, having fun and it's cool as long as they aren't being jerks to those of us who want to be our freaky selves.

[candyman]

It wouldn't have to be a strict dress code policy...you can usually tell the people that don't belong. If someone dresses "normal" but comes on a regular basis an exception could be made too...

[KatRN05]

How about a don't stand on the dance floor and be a jerk policy? As annoying as being mocked or otherwise bothered by these people is, it's just as annoying when they just stand on the dance floor, taking up space and making it more difficult to enjoy one's self.Then there's the douchboners that hit on every girl hoping for some action. I propose a sign that says: "The dance floor is for dancing". Probably won't do much good. A lot of people still don't get the concept of the left/passing lane on a highway...

Yeah I like the idea of a "don't stand on the dance floor and be a jerk" policy. I've observed on one occasion a group of douchebags mocking a DGN member who was dancing at City Club. As for the dress code, I agree with LadyKay. I don't always dress "goth" when I go to C.C. and I'd be hesitant to ever return if there was a dress code enforced.

Edited February 24, 2011 by KatRN05

[TitsMcGee]

Necto = Frat Boy botherers

CC = Redneck/Creeper botherers

Hey I resemble that Redneck remark.

I stopped dressing the part mostly because up here in the sticks I was mocked horribly. If I do go to the club, which these days is rare as hell I will dress up, but like I said it's not often anymore.

[Destroit]

It sounds like the problem wasn't about how these idiots were dressed by rather how they behaved. I love to dress up personally but my husband does not, he still loves the music and loves to dance. In the past he was going to wear something I knew he didn't feel comfortable in because he felt he should but I made him stop and put on his regular jeans/t-shirt because he should be able to wear what he wants and still have fun without feeling out of place. I see people at City in their normal clothes, having fun and it's cool as long as they aren't being jerks to those of us who want to be our freaky selves.

Indeed, but the reason it does become somewhat (although not entirely) clothing related is because most of people who come up into goth/industrial clubs to mock and make fun are generally in subcultures (or "normal" culture, really) and therefore fairly easily identifiable by what they're wearing. Preppy kids and thug kids are not going to dress up goth to go to a goth club to make fun of goth people, they're probably going to walk in there dressed in their mainstream Hollister kind of stuff. The sad part is that so called normal people who are up there legitimately are then lumped into this category.

My two cents is that I take matters into my own hands if I have to. As the article mentioned, if you were a goth walking into a preppy nightclub and doing to them what they do to us, you'd probably have your ass beat or would be at LEAST aggressively confronted about it. Same thing with if you did that at maybe, I dunno, a metal concert, probably wouldn't last very long. Personally I think so as not to discriminate against all preps or whoever that find themselves at a goth club to check it out and have fun, you have to take it on a case-by-case basis.

Indeed, but the reason it does become somewhat (although not entirely) clothing related is because most of people who come up into goth/industrial clubs to mock and make fun are generally in subcultures (or "normal" culture, really) and therefore fairly easily identifiable by what they're wearing. Preppy kids and thug kids are not going to dress up goth to go to a goth club to make fun of goth people, they're probably going to walk in there dressed in their mainstream Hollister kind of stuff. The sad part is that so called normal people who are up there legitimately are then lumped into this category.

My two cents is that I take matters into my own hands if I have to. As the article mentioned, if you were a goth walking into a preppy nightclub and doing to them what they do to us, you'd probably have your ass beat or would be at LEAST aggressively confronted about it. Same thing with if you did that at maybe, I dunno, a metal concert, probably wouldn't last very long. Personally I think so as not to discriminate against all preps or whoever that find themselves at a goth club to check it out and have fun, you have to take it on a case-by-case basis.

Edited February 24, 2011 by Chernobyl

[Slogo]

Indeed, but the reason it does become somewhat (although not entirely) clothing related is because most of people who come up into goth/industrial clubs to mock and make fun are generally in subcultures (or "normal" culture, really) and therefore fairly easily identifiable by what they're wearing. Preppy kids and thug kids are not going to dress up goth to go to a goth club to make fun of goth people, they're probably going to walk in there dressed in their mainstream Hollister kind of stuff. The sad part is that so called normal people who are up there legitimately are then lumped into this category.

My two cents is that I take matters into my own hands if I have to. As the article mentioned, if you were a goth walking into a preppy nightclub and doing to them what they do to us, you'd probably have your ass beat or would be at LEAST aggressively confronted about it. Same thing with if you did that at maybe, I dunno, a metal concert, probably wouldn't last very long. Personally I think so as not to discriminate against all preps or whoever that find themselves at a goth club to check it out and have fun, you have to take it on a case-by-case basis.

1. I don't particularly dress gothy. If I had to determine what my style would be I'd say it's more "Late 80's-early 90's metal".

2. I don't do skinny jeans. For those of you who don't know why...ask the dozens of dgners who've seen my ass.

These ones kinda thrown in Chernobyl's direction

3. One time I went to Tiki Bob's in Pontiac. The place sucked donkey dick but I wasn't really harassed for wearing all black and a biker jacket.

4. I've brought thugish friends of mine to CC. Honestly, they had that look that Shaggy and Scooby get when they see a monster.

5. The only group of people who've gotten on my nerves at CC have a name that rhymes with Buggalo.

(notice I said group...there are individual who may identify with said group that I don't mind)

[Destroit]

5. The only group of people who've gotten on my nerves at CC have a name that rhymes with Buggalo.

(notice I said group...there are individual who may identify with said group that I don't mind)

Ah, Muggalos, of course.

Ah, Muggalos, of course.

[pleasurekatzen]

Also, if someone has harassed someone/caused a legitimate problem in the past and I've brought it to the attention of security, it's been resolved pretty quickly and efficiently. Just saying, the option is there!

[Joey Deadcat]

Straight-billed or Fred Durst-type caps should always set off a red light.

[wormsinwombs]

There should defiantly not be a dress code as many have said. I remember seeing people at the clubs dressed as typical douche bags but they minded their own business and did their own thing on the dance floor. Maybe there needs to be more bouncers or bouncers kicking out the people being jerks. It sucks when this shit happens behind peoples backs. Whenever we catch people making fun of us we should get a big group of "goths" and make fun of them and make them feel really uncomfortable so they leave ex. "look at that jackass his underwear is showing and its covered in stains look at those puny shoes probably matches his penis" XD could work.

In my own experience though is I don't even notice these people they don't even pick up on my radar even more. I just notice the frat boys groping me and the other chicks...annoying

[Ensanguine]

Been to lots of clubs around the world. Slimelight, one of the longest going goth/industrial clubs in the world over in London has a dress code, there's a reason it's one of the longest lived and best.

While a dress code doesn't necessarily keep out a-holes, it does keep out those who aren't actually interested in the subculture and can't be bothered to invest in it. If you want something to thrive you have to define it, cultivate it and give it a face to live through.

No blue-jeans, white Ts, baseball caps, might not be a bad start.

[DJ Nocker]

Its not about the fashion, its about the god damn music. People should learn to just deal with a few jerks, because they are at EVERY BAR! Putting a dress code on an alternative club sounds really silly. I dont dress up as much as I used to, and neither do alot of people we know, but that doesnt mean we dont still love the music with a passion. Hell, one of my best friends since childhood was a FRAT BOY in college, but he loves synthpop more than a few of the kids that are regulars at Necto. People from our scene, would do the exact same thing if they were forced to go to a top 40 bar (not everyone, but a few would for sure, to try and be funny).

If you dress the part, be prepared to get made fun of, or looked at. AND TO WOMEN, If you are running around in a mini skirt that barely covers your ass and nothing but tape on your tits, guys are going to look, if you cant handle it, stop being an attention whore. Thats the way the world is. The only thing that makes me sad is when there are more tourists than actual kids in the scene, lol.

ALSO, you have to think about the bar. Chances are the frat boys are going to buy more drinks than the poor goth kid living with his parents while going to college (generalizing, I know but you see my point). When putting restrictions on a club, you risk potential sales. And when its an alternative night, chances are you need all the money you can get.

Edited February 25, 2011 by DJ Nocker

[DJ Nocker]

Been to lots of clubs around the world. Slimelight, one of the longest going goth/industrial clubs in the world over in London has a dress code, there's a reason it's one of the longest lived and best.

While a dress code doesn't necessarily keep out a-holes, it does keep out those who aren't actually interested in the subculture and can't be bothered to invest in it. If you want something to thrive you have to define it, cultivate it and give it a face to live through.

No blue-jeans, white Ts, baseball caps, might not be a bad start.

Im sure the fact that its in London has nothing to do with it...

[Destroit]

AND TO WOMEN, If you are running around in a mini skirt that barely covers your ass and nothing but tape on your tits, guys are going to look, if you cant handle it, stop being an attention whore. Thats the way the world is.

ROFL. I laughed so unexpectedly I spit coffee on my laptop. I cannot STAND WOMEN who dress sexy and then call men piggish for making remarks or passes at them. It's as silly as a store owner opening shop for the day and then getting mad when people come in to buy shit. And it's not "sexist" either, if a guy's dressed skanky I look him over in the most blatant way possible. Hey, you're advertising, it's free, I like to look at nice things, I'm gonna stare at your body. Sorry, I'm homosapien too. It's just for whatever reason women will make a huge deal about people looking at them when they're dressed provocatively, but when women stare down men who are dressed sexy they usually take it as a compliment.

ROFL. I laughed so unexpectedly I spit coffee on my laptop. I cannot STAND WOMEN who dress sexy and then call men piggish for making remarks or passes at them. It's as silly as a store owner opening shop for the day and then getting mad when people come in to buy shit. And it's not "sexist" either, if a guy's dressed skanky I look him over in the most blatant way possible. Hey, you're advertising, it's free, I like to look at nice things, I'm gonna stare at your body. Sorry, I'm homosapien too. It's just for whatever reason women will make a huge deal about people looking at them when they're dressed provocatively, but when women stare down men who are dressed sexy they usually take it as a compliment.

[KatRN05]

No blue-jeans? Give me a break. That's all the fits my fat ass.

[Joey Deadcat]

ROFL. I laughed so unexpectedly I spit coffee on my laptop. I cannot STAND WOMEN who dress sexy and then call men piggish for making remarks or passes at them. It's as silly as a store owner opening shop for the day and then getting mad when people come in to buy shit. And it's not "sexist" either, if a guy's dressed skanky I look him over in the most blatant way possible. Hey, you're advertising, it's free, I like to look at nice things, I'm gonna stare at your body. Sorry, I'm homosapien too. It's just for whatever reason women will make a huge deal about people looking at them when they're dressed provocatively, but when women stare down men who are dressed sexy they usually take it as a compliment.

On the other hand, said women don't seem to mind if the persons checking them out and hitting on them were female.