Just Checking My Pm Mail.....

[Troy Spiral (13)]

The reason why many posters seem less "negative" or "disruptive" than they actually have been on the board, is exactly because the moderators do their job. Posts that are outside the DGN code of conduct are gone, usually.

Unfortunately some posts are missed or considered too borderline to be removed and then people that have not ever actually read the CoC assume that "This is acceptable" because it happens to exist.

I will say that it gets exhausting sometimes having a 40 hour a week unpaid job that basically is 90% stress and 10% fun and its more important to stop the bleeding (get rid of the offending posts say) first and then afterward if you have the energy, do the "niceties" of explaining to the person why their rude post was removed/edited/deleted.

Sometimes, some mods may not always have the time/energy to do the follow-up PM part. Although that is in the extreme minority of cases and its obvious nowadays what posts have been deleted and and their contents from a moderator perspective.

Beyond that...rarely, if ever does anyone have any real "action" taken against them by a moderator without a (some would say) ridiculous amount of discussion and/or pre-warning to stop with the negative actions.

There's no pat answer because interpretation of the rules and how to enforce them constantly changes here.

At one time (the further you go back into DGN history) this was more true than it is now. The DGN Rules are now (and have been for awhile) much more crystallized and specific than they were at one time and i also have far more intensive interaction with individual moderators and what is expected as to the specifics of DGN in general, and the DGN rules in particular.

As with any system of "rules" they can't cover everything and there are always going to be gray areas, forever. Its very often a matter of interpretation.

Not you, but a ton of others don't even know what the DGN rules are (despite the fact that by signing up for the board you are agreeing to abide by them) which is were the real issues usually comes from. The DGN Rules arent going to change. Some of the subtlties of how they are enforced or how things are worded might, but the core concepts will not.

"I talked to a mod and didn't like the answer"

You can only try to get your way, its not always going to happen. Impossible to make everyone happy, even more impossible to make someone happy that assumes their own personal ethics should be the DGN rules.

98% of people sign up for DGN and agree to the DGN rules without ever actually reading them, we have the fun job of re-explaining them every other day.

"Free Speech"

Many have a far to cartoonist idea of what "free speech" is.

There is always consequences to actions or words that are in place regardless of the context your in. DGN in particular is intended to be fairly "polite" (actually read the DGN rules before opening your mouth would be a good rule of thumb) and if your not up for that, and like being abrasive, and cant make your points without abrasiveness (for example) this just isn't the place for you.

Without enforced "play nice rules" the "strong" (generally rude-ish on message boards) rise to the top typically, and the more thoughtful are flamed into oblivion and leave (or never start posting to begin with). The DGN rules (generally) are to protect the more timid posters rather than give the more disruptive types a soap box to stand on.

We can spew off about anything we like, just not here. Again, read the rules before opening the mouth. By signing up on DGN you agree to abide by the DGN code of conduct.

[Head Wreck]

troy, you have a patience of a saint.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Oh and specific to "disappearing posts"...

Posts that actually make it onto the board (as opposed to being lost in the Internet bit bucket) don't ever actually go away totally anymore.

They are all saved (if the are accidentally or intentionally deleted) in the board "trash" folder. If you really think something was improperly removed or are just unsure what happened, you can always ask. "The Trash" folder is visible to all moderators and its pretty obvious usually when a post gets deleted since it doesn't happen very often.

[know_buddy_kares]

Oh and specific to "disappearing posts"...

Posts that actually make it onto the board (as opposed to being lost in the Internet bit bucket) don't ever actually go away totally anymore.

They are all saved (if the are accidentally or intentionally deleted) in the board "trash" folder. If you really think something was improperly removed or are just unsure what happened, you can always ask. "The Trash" folder is visible to all moderators and its pretty obvious usually when a post gets deleted since it doesn't happen very often.

Does it go in there even if I delete my own posts? Because sometimes shit gets screwed up, I'll double, tripple, fuck even made a quadruple post i think... and well, other times I'll just be like, nah don't wanna reply after all and delete it. Or is it just the mod deletes that go in the trash?

[Troy Spiral (13)]

....I beleive a moderator NEEDS to take the time to connect when directly asked.

If a mod is asked a private question in a PM about board policy (unless they already covered it and are tried of it) they should, indeed (eventually if not right away) respond. I can't say that I always can get to my stuff very quickly or can respond immediately due to real life or other DGN matters taking priority, only so many hours in a day.

If asked via some method other than PMs, we have no control over the reliability of such methods and as such they'd fall outside of anything the DGN mods can be held accountable for.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Does it go in there even if I delete my own posts? Because sometimes shit gets screwed up, I'll double, tripple, fuck even made a quadruple post i think... and well, other times I'll just be like, nah don't wanna reply after all and delete it. Or is it just the mod deletes that go in the trash?

Unless there is a glitch (has happened) all deleted posts, regardless of who deletes them should go into the trash (and thus are saved)

[phee]

troy, you have a patience of a saint.

Indeed

[Scary Guy]

There is always consequences to actions or words that are in place regardless of the context your in. DGN in particular is intended to be fairly "polite" (actually read the DGN rules before opening your mouth would be a good rule of thumb)

I figure it's like most EULA's and the end user just skips over it, like when installing most other programs or signing up for other websites. Perhaps the welcome questions could be edited to include a link to it "Have you read the 'rules'".

Also does the trash work for all replies too, or just the original posts by the topic starter?

[Destroit]

There's really nothing unfair about how the board is run. I wasn't going to get myself too involved in this whole mess, because that's what it's become is a mess, not because I don't care but because it's really not worth it. DGN really is NOT that censored, the mods take every single individual case into consideration and are 9 times out of 10 very through. Not everything needs to be visible to the public, I mean lemme relate this to a real life scenario: You go into the doctor's and find out you have cancer or some disease. Are your records public for any Joe Schmoe to walk in and read? No, of course they're not, and do you know why? NOYFB. End story. The rules are very blatanly posted. You agree to abide by the rules when you sign up to this site, and this board is not necessarily a full democracy, nor has it ever claimed to be. This is technically Troy's board, he could be a really big dick, he could ban people, create peking orders and hierarchies, exclude people, punish for no reason based on what he wants and what his emotions tell him, but he doesn't. Why? Because he's a total fucking peach, that's why, and all the guy is trying to do is run a messageboard smoothly, not so that we get along (because no where in the rules does it say we have to hold hands and frolick together out in a flower patch while agreeing on every topic of conversation and smiling to whatever is said), but so that we can't tear each other apart. Personally, I think he is doing a wonderful job and is fair to the best of his abilities. He also genuinely cares about this board and it's members. I realize Steven that you do feel as though you were slighted, I can understand why you may have suspicions of mods having too much power or censoring too much or what not, but I don't think it was necessarily unfair or because people were against you, or because you're a minority on the board. It was because you and another member had been going back and forth and were warned repeatedly not to, which is breaking the rules. As mods, we're here to enforce the rules, not to pick sides or intentionally piss anyone off. I know this is true for myself and for the other mods I can only assume the same. People's private arguements should be kept between those two people and whatever mod is helping the situation. The staff discussion area should not be public, we don't sit in there and talk smack about members all day, we try to resolve things and get the opinions of others so that we can come to a FAIR and rational decision.

Kay I think I'm done. I'ma take a nap.

[Steven]

There's really nothing unfair about how the board is run. I wasn't going to get myself too involved in this whole mess, because that's what it's become is a mess, not because I don't care but because it's really not worth it. DGN really is NOT that censored, the mods take every single individual case into consideration and are 9 times out of 10 very through. Not everything needs to be visible to the public, I mean lemme relate this to a real life scenario: You go into the doctor's and find out you have cancer or some disease. Are your records public for any Joe Schmoe to walk in and read? No, of course they're not, and do you know why? NOYFB. End story. The rules are very blatanly posted. You agree to abide by the rules when you sign up to this site, and this board is not necessarily a full democracy, nor has it ever claimed to be. This is technically Troy's board, he could be a really big dick, he could ban people, create peking orders and hierarchies, exclude people, punish for no reason based on what he wants and what his emotions tell him, but he doesn't. Why? Because he's a total fucking peach, that's why, and all the guy is trying to do is run a messageboard smoothly, not so that we get along (because no where in the rules does it say we have to hold hands and frolick together out in a flower patch while agreeing on every topic of conversation and smiling to whatever is said), but so that we can't tear each other apart. Personally, I think he is doing a wonderful job and is fair to the best of his abilities. He also genuinely cares about this board and it's members. I realize Steven that you do feel as though you were slighted, I can understand why you may have suspicions of mods having too much power or censoring too much or what not, but I don't think it was necessarily unfair or because people were against you, or because you're a minority on the board. It was because you and another member had been going back and forth and were warned repeatedly not to, which is breaking the rules. As mods, we're here to enforce the rules, not to pick sides or intentionally piss anyone off. I know this is true for myself and for the other mods I can only assume the same. People's private arguements should be kept between those two people and whatever mod is helping the situation. The staff discussion area should not be public, we don't sit in there and talk smack about members all day, we try to resolve things and get the opinions of others so that we can come to a FAIR and rational decision.

Kay I think I'm done. I'ma take a nap.

Troy and I have made peace.

we agreed to disagree. I dont really see the doctors office connection but I repsect yrou effort.

I had a dual focus to my issue with DGN babe - one was internal in terms of of the DGN community itself, and the other was what I felt was the end result of being overcautious and overzealous in preserving the peace, and the two overlapped.

i dont think the Mods are out to get me just because I'm freakishly handsome as you suggested.

I think they were out to get me because I'm Latin.

I think your out to get me too.

In fact I know it was you who led the charge.

[Destroit]

i dont think the Mods are out to get me just because I'm freakishly handsome as you suggested.

I think they were out to get me because I'm Latin.

I think your out to get me too.

In fact I know it was you who led the charge.

Lol now I don't get you on that buddy. I dunno what kind of evidence you'd have for me starting this whole mess, but I assure you that I didn't and as a matter of fact stuck up for you a bit on the board when you made that one post about how you felt alienated and like a minority and thought you were treated wrongly for it.

Basically the doctor's reference: There's just certain stuff in life that may concern other people, could actually impact a few people's lives, but still should be kept private if the person with the problem chooses it to be. In short, people's business should be kept private, people keep talking on here about how it should be this huge free-for-all democracy where everyone like votes on every little move and everything should be public, when in reality that just isn't right and wouldn't work. If I have an arguement with someone else on the board the only people who know about it should be the other person and maybe a mod or two. Kinda like if you had oh I dunno, AIDS or something, only you and your doctor should know about it. Not the whole damn world. That's what I meant (sorry for being too abstract and unclear, sometimes my head kinda freezes up and my brains don't think good, and it's all over from there and I don't express what I was trying to say how I wanted to).

[torn asunder]

i dont think the Mods are out to get me just because I'm freakishly handsome as you suggested.

I think they were out to get me because I'm Latin.

I think your out to get me too.

In fact I know it was you who led the charge.

if you're joking, try using a smilie, or implying so in some manner... claiming racial discrimination is a serious bit. sarcasm/meaning doesn't come across well in text as you know, so please put some effort into making your meaning clear.

thanks

[Scary Guy]

if you're joking, try using a smilie, or implying so in some manner... claiming racial discrimination is a serious bit. sarcasm/meaning doesn't come across well in text as you know, so please put some effort into making your meaning clear.

thanks

Very true, I got it, but then again I'm good at that stuff. I figured it was obvious he was being sarcastic when I read it.

Anyhow, moving along.

[Fierce Critter]

if you're joking, try using a smilie, or implying so in some manner... claiming racial discrimination is a serious bit. sarcasm/meaning doesn't come across well in text as you know, so please put some effort into making your meaning clear.

thanks

OMFG - come on! You're kidding me, right?

I got it. And I'm the queen of not being able to read between the lines.

[Msterbeau]

I'm going to weigh in on this just a little. I think Steven and I are on the same page with this so I'll probably be in the "agree to disagree" camp. I'll speak my peace anyways.

First: Cher... I think the doc example is not quite the right one. Why? Because in a thread, everyone who has read that particular thread knows what's going on there. A dispute may be between two parties, but others are aware/involved. If you and I had a private discussion that someone caught wind of and wanted to know more, then NOYFB certainly applies.

And it's because of this knowledge/participation that in the case of flaming or other behavior that contravenes the rules mods should bring out some of the discussion that's going on around it. Will it potentially embarrass someone? Yep. And to that I say, "tough". Perhaps that becomes a way to remind people to keep things polite? I think an apt situation is in court of law. Certain parties are directly involved (The people involved in the dispute/rules infringement) there are the officials (Judges and lawyers in court, the mods here) and then there's the rest of the people who sit in the benches and watch. The public gets to see what goes on.. understand the process, and the consequences of certain behavior, but they don't actively participate. Only the mods and involved parties do. That keeps things manageable from an input standpoint. And when it's done, there's no dispute over what happened to whom or why. People may not agree with the results... too bad. But at least they see how it happened and can't complain about being treated unfairly.

[Msterbeau]

OMFG - come on! You're kidding me, right?

I got it. And I'm the queen of not being able to read between the lines.

Yeah, but it never hurts to be completely obvious. Just in case. I was *pretty sure* that it was a joke... but not absolutely.

[torn asunder]

OMFG - come on! You're kidding me, right?

I got it. And I'm the queen of not being able to read between the lines.

no, i'm making a point... words can mean many things when read without the context of vocal inflection, facial expressions, body language, etc. since that can't be had on the board, we all need to be sure our words come across as we intend them. i see how it could be meant in humor too, my point is, others might not, and it's the poster's responsibility to do their best to ensure that their meaning is fairly clear.

am i a bit uptight right now? maybe... so sue me...

[Msterbeau]

maybe... so sue me...

*Dials 1-800 CALL SAM*

[creatureofthenyte]

no, i'm making a point... words can mean many things when read without the context of vocal inflection, facial expressions, body language, etc. since that can't be had on the board, we all need to be sure our words come across as we intend them. i see how it could be meant in humor too, my point is, others might not, and it's the poster's responsibility to do their best to ensure that their meaning is fairly clear.

am i a bit uptight right now? maybe... so sue me...

No, I think you have a good point.

I try to be as clear as possible,

but sometimes, especially when I'm trying to be humorous, my clarity can get lost.

[Steven]

Lol now I don't get you on that buddy. I dunno what kind of evidence you'd have for me starting this whole mess, but I assure you that I didn't and as a matter of fact stuck up for you a bit on the board when you made that one post about how you felt alienated and like a minority and thought you were treated wrongly for it.

Basically the doctor's reference: There's just certain stuff in life that may concern other people, could actually impact a few people's lives, but still should be kept private if the person with the problem chooses it to be. In short, people's business should be kept private, people keep talking on here about how it should be this huge free-for-all democracy where everyone like votes on every little move and everything should be public, when in reality that just isn't right and wouldn't work. If I have an arguement with someone else on the board the only people who know about it should be the other person and maybe a mod or two. Kinda like if you had oh I dunno, AIDS or something, only you and your doctor should know about it. Not the whole damn world. That's what I meant (sorry for being too abstract and unclear, sometimes my head kinda freezes up and my brains don't think good, and it's all over from there and I don't express what I was trying to say how I wanted to).

well no....we cant say for sure that it wont work, and we cant say for sure what EVERYONE is thinking or wants.

The misconception in my case was that it appeared to some that i wanted to overhaul everything Moderator/rule related and I didint - what I wanted - was the opportunity for open communication regarding it and the ability for members to have a voice. Whatever is decided with that voice is decided. Even my nine questions that never saw the light of day were designed to promote communication, and they were shut down before seeing the light of day. Now I know that to Moderator staff they were deemed as unhealthy for the whole, but in my eyes that is one step too far to take that away and decide by preventiing exposure of one POSSIBLE school of thought. We'll never know what everyone wants Chernobyl....we'll never get to that part as this is a controlled environment. Troy and the staff have their reasons which I must respect to play here. I have my reasons based on my playtime here. And I lost that war.

PS I know you stuck up for me and I appreciate it.

[Steven]

no, i'm making a point... words can mean many things when read without the context of vocal inflection, facial expressions, body language, etc. since that can't be had on the board, we all need to be sure our words come across as we intend them. i see how it could be meant in humor too, my point is, others might not, and it's the poster's responsibility to do their best to ensure that their meaning is fairly clear.

am i a bit uptight right now? maybe... so sue me...

no one can be 100% sure Mike, even you come across condescending at times.

but here's something novel: if there is confusion in what I (or anyone else), ask me, I'll tell you.

and if someone at some point clarifies by saying "that's not what I meant".... we can choose to just accept that.

[Steven]

I'm going to weigh in on this just a little. I think Steven and I are on the same page with this so I'll probably be in the "agree to disagree" camp. I'll speak my peace anyways.

First: Cher... I think the doc example is not quite the right one. Why? Because in a thread, everyone who has read that particular thread knows what's going on there. A dispute may be between two parties, but others are aware/involved. If you and I had a private discussion that someone caught wind of and wanted to know more, then NOYFB certainly applies.

And it's because of this knowledge/participation that in the case of flaming or other behavior that contravenes the rules mods should bring out some of the discussion that's going on around it. Will it potentially embarrass someone? Yep. And to that I say, "tough". Perhaps that becomes a way to remind people to keep things polite? I think an apt situation is in court of law. Certain parties are directly involved (The people involved in the dispute/rules infringement) there are the officials (Judges and lawyers in court, the mods here) and then there's the rest of the people who sit in the benches and watch. The public gets to see what goes on.. understand the process, and the consequences of certain behavior, but they don't actively participate. Only the mods and involved parties do. That keeps things manageable from an input standpoint. And when it's done, there's no dispute over what happened to whom or why. People may not agree with the results... too bad. But at least they see how it happened and can't complain about being treated unfairly.

excellent

excellent.

[Steven]

if you're joking, try using a smilie, or implying so in some manner... claiming racial discrimination is a serious bit. sarcasm/meaning doesn't come across well in text as you know, so please put some effort into making your meaning clear.

thanks

dead serious and viva la raza and we dont need to steenkin badges

[Steven]

Yeah, but it never hurts to be completely obvious. Just in case. I was *pretty sure* that it was a joke... but not absolutely.

but that's because I'm vain brutha.....I KNOW I'm freakishly handsome...

[Scary Guy]

And it's because of this knowledge/participation that in the case of flaming or other behavior that contravenes the rules mods should bring out some of the discussion that's going on around it. Will it potentially embarrass someone? Yep. And to that I say, "tough". Perhaps that becomes a way to remind people to keep things polite? I think an apt situation is in court of law. Certain parties are directly involved (The people involved in the dispute/rules infringement) there are the officials (Judges and lawyers in court, the mods here) and then there's the rest of the people who sit in the benches and watch. The public gets to see what goes on.. understand the process, and the consequences of certain behavior, but they don't actively participate. Only the mods and involved parties do. That keeps things manageable from an input standpoint. And when it's done, there's no dispute over what happened to whom or why. People may not agree with the results... too bad. But at least they see how it happened and can't complain about being treated unfairly.

The judicial system is pretty flawed and even still you can't compare it to the court. Maybe the supreme court or a board of inquiry if anything.

no, i'm making a point... words can mean many things when read without the context of vocal inflection, facial expressions, body language, etc. since that can't be had on the board, we all need to be sure our words come across as we intend them. i see how it could be meant in humor too, my point is, others might not, and it's the poster's responsibility to do their best to ensure that their meaning is fairly clear.

am i a bit uptight right now? maybe... so sue me...

Sounded more like you were handing out a reprimand than making a point. That's all I'm saying. If you are uptight about things maybe you should try to lighten up or take a break for a while. This place is supposed to be fun, and when you stop having fun then it loses its meaning.