Civility In Skeptisism

[Troy Spiral (13)]

[sekhmet2002]

Good points. Sometimes it'seems easy to forget that.

[kat (1)]

I can't remember what movie the quote was but it went something like people are always looking for the truth but what would they do with it if they actually found it?

[Scary Guy]

I am an asshole, and I am proud!  I cannot stand those who are willfully ignorant of the truth, or know the truth and lie to others for some sort of personal gain.

Sometimes people listen to reason, and others are deaf to it.  It is infuriating when there are financial or medical consequences to such beliefs too.  Like the anti-vaccine movement, the homeopaths, the chiropractors, the faith-healers, etc..

This sums up how I feel quite well:

 

[Troy Spiral (13)]

10 hours ago, Scary Guy said:

I am an asshole, and I am proud!  I cannot stand those who are willfully ignorant of the truth, or know the truth and lie to others for some sort of personal gain.

Sometimes people listen to reason, and others are deaf to it.  It is infuriating when there are financial or medical consequences to such beliefs too.  Like the anti-vaccine movement, the homeopaths, the chiropractors, the faith-healers, etc..

 

People that we are referring to here are not being willfully ignorant.  That's a whole different subject.  Them types are a lost cause , at least a lost cause enough to not even bother with unless you're forced to for one reason or another. 

 

Willfully ignorant people (and I do know they exist) people are holding society back and I to have a huge problem with that.   Here's a good one for the people that don't want to recognize that Mother Goose and Yahweh have just as much evidence to support them.

 

“Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; .... It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.”  [slightly out of context but he would totally agree with the point here]
―Thomas Jefferson

 

Now that is, theoretically aimed not at "honest christians" that is, people that due to their upbringing, their mental capacity or whatever, honestly believe the stuff and are actually kind people.  Not people , knowing better, WILLFULLY being obstinate.

 

Being proud of a character or intellectual flaw is something to rethink (willful rudeness is just as destructive as willful ignorance).  Takes more courage to change for most of us than it does to dig our heels in. 
 

A lack of good character should be rooted out in ourselves, not embraced.

 

 

 

 

[Scary Guy]

Yeah, I dig my heels, because even those who don't know any better are holding scientific progress and society back, and even damaging them.  Religion has flown vans and planes into buildings.  Fanatical fundamentalism is bad, and to go from moderate to fanatic in just about anything isn't that complicated, especially when you have religious texts and a community that prods you to do things you otherwise might not do.  Even suicide bombings etc...  I think religion is dangerous in pretty much every form that exists.

[Vater Araignee]

To me, if one is being an illogical douche about something deserves nothing more than douche baggery in return.

Someone who sets up a straw man of my argument obviously wants me to deconstruct it and start an ad hominem campaign against the core of their being. Even atheists can get the sharp pointy end, hell sometimes they piss me off more with their stupidity.

**Storms off grumbling about getting the definition changed so they can clam to be agnostic wile still insulting them**

[Troy Spiral (13)]

On 3/31/2016 at 8:41 AM, Vater Araignee said:

To me, if one is being an illogical douche about something deserves nothing more than douche baggery in return.

Someone who sets up a straw man of my argument obviously wants me to deconstruct it and start an ad hominem campaign against the core of their being. Even atheists can get the sharp pointy end, hell sometimes they piss me off more with their stupidity.

**Storms off grumbling about getting the definition changed so they can clam to be agnostic wile still insulting them**

Has a lot to do with intent.  Also have to realize people came to be the way they are, because of ... reasons, not necessarily under their control.   Responding in a sort of jerk off way to something, just makes people dig their heels in, no hope then.   Sagan goes into detail on this in two of his books.  (at least two, I've not read all his books ... yet... that is a thing on my eventual to-do list)

 

Neil Degrasse Tyson has covered this line of "responding to the unreasonable"  many, many different ways.   So do a lot of other "Science Guys" i have a fair amount of respect for. Michio Kaku (Physics of the Future: How Science Will Shape Human Destiny by the Year 2100) and Lawrence Krauss (The Physics of Star Trek) good stuff (the books). Probably should make a separate posts about really good science books (as if anyone reads hehe). 

 

Don't get me wrong, still pisses me off when someone isn't willing to pay attention to what (to me) seem like obvious facts, and I HAVE been a douche in responding to such in the past.  But in the end it doesn't do anyone any good, except if your the type to feel better after berating someone.  

I do understand the feeling or the desire or the sort of mild disgust feeling when someone seems to be being willfully ignorant.  That is when I have a hard time just "being nice"  but I try. 

[Scary Guy]

Well when you see religion as one of the most dangerous forces on the planet it's kind of hard to keep your mouth shut, to remain silent about it, to "live and let live" because even though the moderates might not care much, with numbers they also don't care if you're at best converted, or at worst killed.  Even those who might be against it may remain silent for fear of being singled out themselves.  There are plenty of examples of this too.  Even the joke religion of the Subgenius jokes about being split between turning all the pinks into slaves or killing them.

The Subgenius have fanatics too, the people who actually drink the koolaid and take the shit seriously, or at least appear to.  The people the other people in the church deem crazy are called "Bobbies" and of the few I've met on IRC they exemplified Poe's Law perfectly.  I have a theory that any belief system or group large enough will eventually use force to enforce their religion of peace, because what force is going to stop them?  That's why I stopped doing that nonsense (although it was fun and most of the people are nice.)  Power corrupts large groups too, especially when they feel justified in using that power.

There is also the theory that different types of communication speak to different types of people.  Ridicule can be an effective tool, especially when you get them heated and arguing their insane brand of bullshit and shoot it down with facts.  Some have been deconverted that way although I do agree that it doesn't speak to everyone.  There is also the theory that it's easier to deconvert the most vocal and adamant apologeticists as well because they have to constantly reinforce their belief to themselves as well as others (kind of like the gay homophobic politicians.)

Where religion has really been dangerous is climate change denial, faith healers, and all the other pseudo-scientific bullshit that stems from it.

So yeah, I'm just a little bit pissed off.  I do think that by working together we can do more, but I'm still going to call them out on their bullshit when I see it.  Me and my religious friends have a deal, we don't discuss it.  Life seems to run pretty smoothly that way.

[Vater Araignee]

*walks of mumbling* there's that phrase again, climate change denial, if man made climate change was real they wouldn't keep moving the goal post. man made global cooling, no is man made global warming, no it man made climate change, but wait if we just call it climate change we can claim that anyone denying the man made aspect is actually denying a natural process.

[RosyBlue]

I feel that there's different ways to handle people, based on why they believe what they believe. I think that for MOST people, belittling or being a jerk about it is only going to reinforce their ideas. "This person who believes differently than I do is being a jerk, therefore people who believe differently than me are bad people and should be avoided." See what that does? It just shuts down the whole conversation. You've lost them. I'm not talking about people who know the truth and lie about it for personal gain. Those people can fuck off. Those are the ones you should feel free to belittle, if it makes you feel better. What would be better would be to expose them as frauds, though. This ends their shenanigans and shows the people who believed them that they should do more research, which also opens them up to reason. Besides the liars, there's the people who just don't know from lack of information and the people who are scared.

People who are scared - When you're told from the time you're a baby that things are a certain way and that there are eternal repercussions for going against it, damn right you're going to be scared! That idea is a part of life for you just like knowing that if you jump into an active volcano, you're going to die. You've probably never seen it happen and you've certainly never tested it out yourself, but you believe it to be true because that's what you've been told and it seems logical to you. With these people you have to take baby steps. Trying to force a person like this will just make them never want to talk to you again. Forcing a person to do something they're scared of will make them shut down and then you've lost them.

People who have a lack of information - These people fall into two groups: those that are willing to learn but may be apprehensive and those that are willfully ignorant. Many times I feel that the willfully ignorant are just scared, which takes you back to the scared group and the need for a more gentle approach. As for the ones that are willing to learn, as long as you don't be a condescending jerk about it you should get far with them.

If someone seriously won't listen to reason after taking all of that into consideration, you need to just walk away. You'll only frustrate yourself and that frustration will spill into the rest of your life.

I agree that religion CAN be dangerous. I also see hope people can think they need it. The idea that when I die I'm just going to cease to exist scares me. I have an overly strong fear of death because of this. It would be a lot more comforting if I believed that there was somewhere I would go. The human brain doesn't handle the idea of not existing well. It would also be nice if I felt there was someone looking out for me, that I could talk to when things get tough, and that loves me unconditionally. Everyone needs that. I won't delude myself into believing in a god just to have those things because I'd know in my heart that it's not true, but it would be nice. That's what you're fighting against. Taking away someone's security blanket is going to be hard. It's even harder if you're a jerk about it.

[RosyBlue]

Also, if anyone actually reads that whole thing, I owe you a cookie or a sticker or something. Sorry for the long post!

[Scary Guy]

You owe me nothing, and I don't agree with everything but I completely agree on that last part.  Never said I wasn't scared of not existing.  Although these days I take the stance of Woody Allan "It's not death I'm afraid of, it's that whole dying part that scares me."  I'm a bit of a nihilist and often think "why bother" and that helps keep me lazy too.  Yet I want to make everyone like me :/

Anyway, always try the nice approach first.  If that doesn't work then I say bring out the asshole in you.  I always like to use the "if he loves you then why would he send you to burn for all eternity" line.  Also "if he knows everything why would he make it to where you question him so he sends you to hell?" is fun too.  Those of course only work on the low hanging fruit but they do work.  Planting seeds of doubt is what life is all about!

[Troy Spiral (13)]

On 4/4/2016 at 0:37 AM, Scary Guy said:

Well when you see religion as one of the most dangerous forces on the planet it's kind of hard to keep your mouth shut, to remain silent about it, to "live and let live" because even though the moderates might not care much, with numbers they also don't care if you're at best converted, or at worst killed.  Even those who might be against it may remain silent for fear of being singled out themselves.  There are plenty of examples of this too.  Even the joke religion of the Subgenius jokes about being split between turning all the pinks into slaves or killing them.

The Subgenius have fanatics too, the people who actually drink the koolaid and take the shit seriously, or at least appear to.  The people the other people in the church deem crazy are called "Bobbies" and of the few I've met on IRC they exemplified Poe's Law perfectly.  I have a theory that any belief system or group large enough will eventually use force to enforce their religion of peace, because what force is going to stop them?  That's why I stopped doing that nonsense (although it was fun and most of the people are nice.)  Power corrupts large groups too, especially when they feel justified in using that power.

There is also the theory that different types of communication speak to different types of people.  Ridicule can be an effective tool, especially when you get them heated and arguing their insane brand of bullshit and shoot it down with facts.  Some have been deconverted that way although I do agree that it doesn't speak to everyone.  There is also the theory that it's easier to deconvert the most vocal and adamant apologeticists as well because they have to constantly reinforce their belief to themselves as well as others (kind of like the gay homophobic politicians.)

Where religion has really been dangerous is climate change denial, faith healers, and all the other pseudo-scientific bullshit that stems from it.

So yeah, I'm just a little bit pissed off.  I do think that by working together we can do more, but I'm still going to call them out on their bullshit when I see it.  Me and my religious friends have a deal, we don't discuss it.  Life seems to run pretty smoothly that way.

I agree with the (general) sentiment ,which  people and which religion (in modern times, not historically) is an issue.   I'd strongly suggest Letter to a Chrstian Nation by Sam Harris that makes the same argument, but in detail and it's a quick, smart come out of it armed with more specific info type book. Top 10 book suggestion (my suggestions) besides.  =D

(would suggest this book to everyone of high school reading level in the country , world would be a better place)

 

But the point of the topic is , to be more detailed,  civility toward people , they are human beings, they were (mostly) taught a certain way of thinking, they made no "choice" , nor in most cases especially in the west are they being "mean".   Being mean / rude  will not help change this "great evil".   Some of it will never change due to human nature.  But some of it can change, and a lot faster with honey than vinegar.  Vinegar will change no ones mind.   Also it just has no ethical basis for it (being rude) at least not on mine, and I'd say probably the "best" moral compasses.

I can understand the outrage at some things, and the difficulty in not being rude / abrupt.   Hell i know people in real life that I think are nice people, but I have a HELL of a time not just ripping into them when they say something that just seems ... totally outside of reality.  But is it more important to evetually have a civil conversation and try to change things, or is it better to just be an angry ass?   The angry ass might "feel" cooler, but in reality , being nice wins the race.  Can still be firm/steadfast and be at least (fairly) polite. 

[Troy Spiral (13)]

On 4/5/2016 at 9:39 PM, RosyBlue said:

I feel that there's different ways to handle people, based on why they believe what they believe. I think that for MOST people, belittling or being a jerk about it is only going to reinforce their ideas. "This person who believes differently than I do is being a jerk, therefore people who believe differently than me are bad people and should be avoided." See what that does? It just shuts down the whole conversation. You've lost them. I'm not talking about people who know the truth and lie about it for personal gain. Those people can fuck off. Those are the ones you should feel free to belittle, if it makes you feel better. What would be better would be to expose them as frauds, though. This ends their shenanigans and shows the people who believed them that they should do more research, which also opens them up to reason. Besides the liars, there's the people who just don't know from lack of information and the people who are scared.

People who are scared - When you're told from the time you're a baby that things are a certain way and that there are eternal repercussions for going against it, damn right you're going to be scared! That idea is a part of life for you just like knowing that if you jump into an active volcano, you're going to die. You've probably never seen it happen and you've certainly never tested it out yourself, but you believe it to be true because that's what you've been told and it seems logical to you. With these people you have to take baby steps. Trying to force a person like this will just make them never want to talk to you again. Forcing a person to do something they're scared of will make them shut down and then you've lost them.

People who have a lack of information - These people fall into two groups: those that are willing to learn but may be apprehensive and those that are willfully ignorant. Many times I feel that the willfully ignorant are just scared, which takes you back to the scared group and the need for a more gentle approach. As for the ones that are willing to learn, as long as you don't be a condescending jerk about it you should get far with them.

If someone seriously won't listen to reason after taking all of that into consideration, you need to just walk away. You'll only frustrate yourself and that frustration will spill into the rest of your life.

I agree that religion CAN be dangerous. I also see hope people can think they need it. The idea that when I die I'm just going to cease to exist scares me. I have an overly strong fear of death because of this. It would be a lot more comforting if I believed that there was somewhere I would go. The human brain doesn't handle the idea of not existing well. It would also be nice if I felt there was someone looking out for me, that I could talk to when things get tough, and that loves me unconditionally. Everyone needs that. I won't delude myself into believing in a god just to have those things because I'd know in my heart that it's not true, but it would be nice. That's what you're fighting against. Taking away someone's security blanket is going to be hard. It's even harder if you're a jerk about it.

this

[Troy Spiral (13)]

On 4/5/2016 at 9:43 PM, RosyBlue said:

Also, if anyone actually reads that whole thing, I owe you a cookie or a sticker or something. Sorry for the long post!

where's my cookie...actually i'm working on my weight,  diet pop at the gathering should cover all that work I had to do reading. *wipes brow*