"We Deserve Better" video airs at Festival Kinetik 5.0

[pleasurekatzen]

I wasn't really sure where to put this thread, because it *might* belong under this heading but also *could* technically fall under the Music heading as well. Mods, feel free to move if you think it's better suited under Music.

Last night at Festival Kinetik 5.0 in Montreal, Ad-Ver-Sary and Antigen Shift performed and showed a video that has stuck up some intense discussion at both the festival itself as well as on ye olde interwebs about lyrics and imagery in the industrial scene.

The link to the video is posted below.

Watch the video aired at Kinetik 5.0 HERE

Jairus Kahn of Ad-Ver-Sary also gave an interview to idieyoudie.com regarding his presentation at Kinetik.

iDieYouDie.com with WHY Ad-Ver-Sary chose to do what they did

I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on the matter.

[Class-Punk]

*Most* Industrial to me is boring, mindless aggression with no interesting social commentary. The sexism in this case, lacking any interesting commentary, is just a byproduct of boring, mindless aggression. I personally don't have much hatred to devote to men or women because I'm directing it all towards art.

[Destroit]

Gonna have to agree with Rainier and LaPlegua, actually. Industrial/EBM has always been about being provocative, but with a message and a point. Many times, artists will use imagery of what they're pushing against to put their message across, Skinny Puppy is a huge one that comes to mind. Back in the 80s/90s they got so much shit for their stage performances, the blood, self-mutilation, animal cruelty imagery, etc, and really at no point was Ogre saying he was for these things, quite the opposite, and the band used them as a tool of expression, not to promote those ideals. That Jairus guy seems like he's a real whiner and in the wrong scene.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Sexism In "art" in particular:

Many different things being covered there. We are all going to generally (I hope) agree that sexism or any other sort of blind hate is not a good thing and not something we want to promote. Hell, me personally I've lost friends over banning them from DGN for such behaviors, and am still "paying" for my stance against it in the loss of social connections. It has to do with context for me, that is, I'm VERY loose and wise-assed and "inappropriate" with my humor and such in "safe" contexts were people know im just being funny or say a GF that I know certian things turn them on.

I know I'd feel (somewhat) threatened by anti-male bigotry but in the context of art that irritation would be limited.

In the above, wer e are talking about an art form. How good would art be if it was washed of any shocking elements. Its a hard line to deal with. We are not talking about an article in Time magazine promoting racism its more confusing than that.

I'm a big fan of "serious" film , much of it is shocking but its known as work of "fiction" I view all art-forms in this light. How good would The Godfather be if it was politically correct. How sexy would many of our more deviant interests be if they were politically correct.

Having said that I can totally see why it would be offensive to some, but freedom of speech/expression being at near all time low (at least in recent time) I'm more worried about that than I am about people taking offence to "rude" artwork.

I think it has more to do with context, in the context of adults, connecting to view materials with already strong ideas about how they view the world. I hope we aren't showing this to impressionable children.

As for some of the more generalized discussion about what industural/EBM is "about":

The EBM/industral the whole scene has long been as varied as the human experience (especialy once the "EBM" term became widely used), save the very early days when not many acts were involved. Its never been "one message" or even a set of messages. Once it started growing (whatever we want to say "it" is) Things became as wide ranging as any other art form, sometimes just for "fun" sometimes very pointed. True often with a more "serious" and often tone but that's it the tone without any push scene-wide for a message.

Its what psychologists call conformation bias if we do find any overarching message that isnt borne out in reality (all members of X large group believes Y is an example aka bigotry), that is , we get an idea in our heads about what something is, and only notice the details that fit with our personal interpretation and ignore any contrary evidence. So much in fact that we get emotionally attached to this preconceived notion and might actually ge angry with anyone or any real evidence that challenges our viewpoint. To try and say that there was a meeting of the minds as to some sociopolitical entire scene-wide message I think is more wishful thinking that what is actually there.

True, music generally has a "message" of some sort or another, but so do most works of art, no necessarily with any unifying theme.

The acts that I PERSONALLY tend to like, tend to seem to have more of a "strong" message, but there are plenty that are just raging against the rain or not raging at all and just making interesting sound. Would I LIKE more bands to have some sort of sociological overarching "message" ? Yes 100% Yes. But I don't think that's the reality. Music is mainly entertainment, the rest is bonus. Taking my personal preferences/ideology and extrapolating it to the entire genre or a set of genres is textbook conformation bias, as much as I might like to think otherwise.

Not that there needs to be a message, if that's what it was about we'd be reading political commentary, music like all art, taken as a whole, is more concerned with entertaining than anything else the entertainment is what its "about" any message is secondary (or nonexistent). This is true of all major art forms (true not of individual works, but true in general.) I WANT most all art to have a message, but much of it doesn't or it is a very mild message. Again there are lots of exceptions but its just a fact that art is largely meant to be interesting/entertaining before anything else. Hell I learned this in Lit 101 , Art 101 , Music 101 etc. There are actual test questions "what is the goal of X art form" correct answer on actual test? "B: To Entertain".

[Class-Punk]

Why Goth/Industrial Doesn't Work

I find Goth/Industrial is a pairing that doesn't work, setting aside the differences between Post-punk and Electronic. It doesn't work because the playlist is usually mostly Industrial, and even if the playlist is balanced, there's the matter of the word Goth used in this case.

While there might be some new Industrial being played, the Goth next to the Industrial is mostly synonymous with original Gothic rock hits ignoring Deathrock, Darkwave, and Dark Indie, usually even more specific by what makes people dance.

What makes Industrial stand in the shadow of Punk the most is how most of it lacks education and any kind of socio-political awareness. Instead, it goes for lyrics with mindless sex and violence almost in an attempt to try to masculinize Goth, which was already confident enough in its masculinity.

Gothic rock as a whole is more gender-balanced and feminist than Industrial; one is more likely to sing about love and the other rape. Looking at the socio-political state of the world, it needs feminism more than masculinism. Both Gothic rock and Dark Indie not combined probably have more female-fronted bands than Industrial and probably always will. In closing, the entire Goth scene could be switched back to its Punk Rock roots by convincing women to be feminists.

From my blog.

[WhiteLines]

That was great. And also one of my favorite Ad•ver•sary tracks. I have to say there was some point years ago, where what was being labeled as "industrial music" simply was going in a direction that no longer really represented my interests, both musically as well as the overall message or theme of it. This facilitated my transition over to post-industrial forms of experimental electronic music, IDM, neo-classical, and many other sub-genres. Oddly enough i began making that transition with artists such as Ad•ver•sary and Antigen Shift, which led me to record labels like Tympanik Audio and Ant Zen forever changing the way I listen to music.

And while I do agree that industrial musicians have long made use of shocking or provocative imagery such as Skinny Puppy, I think that those older industrial acts made it more clear through their lyrics and statements that they were against certain principles, but nowadays I don't see such a clear distinction. Artists like Combichrist's imagery and lyrics seem to go hand in hand to portray a certain message. I don't have anything against that per say, everyone has a right to an opinion and to think how they want to... the lyrics and possible message of these groups just isn't something I could see myself being into for the most part.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

From my blog.

I think when your saying it doesn't work your meaning, it doesn't work in the context of a club? Which I get what your saying, as "the industrial" (using the term very loosely) seems to swallow up the gothic playlist slots (using the term gothic in its traditional sense, and the term industrial in its lose, dancyish sense).

If we are talking about traditional newwave/post punk "gothic rock" vs tradtional "industrial" (not dancy per se) the gothic rock would win in a "most often played" lets call it. Unfortunately neither type in its traditional sense is widely played at clubs.

Just depends on where the emphasis is put in the definitions of the terms. Say Industrial (traditional) vs industrial (lose) or Gothic(Tradtional) vs gothic(lose). Which is an endless source of discussion (and frustration for some people) as none of the terms are particularly precise.

I think for the average person the term gothic , is just a tone or characteristic, and just about anything could have a "gothic spin" to it lets call it. The term gthic <insert a noun here> could be anything from music to a swimming pool. So you could have say a farmers market that was "gothic" if decorated as such. Or have a country song that was "gothic" in terms of the lyrics.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I don't have anything against that per say, everyone has a right to an opinion and to think how they want to...

Interesting commentary, honestly. (didn't quote the whole thing, but I did read it)

I think this (quoted) is true, but only in a technical "in our own minds" sense, not in actual practice of expression. Not that I LIKE the fact that we can't all just "speak our minds, whatever comes to mind." I wish we could.

Anything other than just "thinking about it" is always in some context or some audience, which, there can be huge negative consequences for certain types of speech/expression (anything from just social ostracism to ,jail, getting lynched by the mob, literal castration, etc).

I remember something from dead poets society:

"But only in their dreams can man be truly free. 'Twas always thus, and always thus will be."

[Class-Punk]

I think when your saying it doesn't work your meaning, it doesn't work in the context of a club? Which I get what your saying, as "the industrial" (using the term very loosely) seems to swallow up the gothic playlist slots (using the term gothic in its traditional sense, and the term industrial in its lose, dancyish sense).

If we are talking about traditional newwave/post punk "gothic rock" vs tradtional "industrial" (not dancy per se) the gothic rock would win in a "most often played" lets call it. Unfortunately neither type in its traditional sense is widely played at clubs.

Just depends on where the emphasis is put in the definitions of the terms. Say Industrial (traditional) vs industrial (lose) or Gothic(Tradtional) vs gothic(lose). Which is an endless source of discussion (and frustration for some people) as none of the terms are particularly precise.

I think for the average person the term gothic , is just a tone or characteristic, and just about anything could have a "gothic spin" to it lets call it. The term gthic <insert a noun here> could be anything from music to a swimming pool. So you could have say a farmers market that was "gothic" if decorated as such. Or have a country song that was "gothic" in terms of the lyrics.

Yeah I was speaking in the context of bars/clubs, I was only using Goth for short to refer to Gothic rock as it would in such a context. I will admit I don't know what to call newer Industrial and the distinction isn't usually made, but then there is the argument I left out, that they are two different genres of sound and one is more acoustic-based. I also agree the average person will always have a wide definition of Goth and I have no problem with that; to be honest I find myself sort of taking a stance where I see Gothic rock as more of a template for Dark Indie than something that necessarily needs to be put up on any kind of pedestal.