California's Prop 8 Overturned

[taysteewonderbunny]

I am really disturbed at all the analogies of gay marriage to interspecie or human to object marriage. Unless you are trying to tell me that I or my father or great many of my friends, all of whom are fully human, fully capable of rational thought, human emotion and empathy are somehow LESS human for not being straight and therefore merely equivalent to cars or dolphins, find another line of argument. If that IS your argument, I laugh in your face and am very glad you are not a judge in California or elsewhere that you don't have the sense to recognize a member of your own species.

[taysteewonderbunny]

Pedophilia is NOT a sexual orientation. I see where you could think it is, but do you believe that beastiality is one too then?

And honestly...you can make a connection between ANY two things in the world...it's very easy to do. However just because something can be connected to something else doesn't make it accurate or even related to the other subject necessarily.

That much is true. Pedophilia isn't a sexual orientation AT ALL. Interestingly enough, of the pedophiles in the world, regardless of the gender of their victims, they otherwise identify, and often maintain relationships of the sort, as HETEROSEXUALS, in about the SAME percentile as heterosexual non-pedophiles (90%).

[candyman]

I don't care who compares someone to something or whatever they can think what they want. The part here that disturbs me is that talk about "equal rights" and all that shit.

So people are flying the flag for the minorities here huh? The old argument where it doesn't matter what the person does or thinks they should be allowed to do it because its their basic human right to do it? BULLSHIT! If that were the case and if that was what you really believe then some of you would have had different arguments in past discussions. There have been a shit ton of cases where a minority group, considered so because of their actions, was tossed out into the streets (figuratively) because their actions were considered harmful to others as far as health wise, physically, mentally, or spiritually.

Religious groups have been fucked sideways because of our awesome new standards. Example: Christians in the military now have restrictions on where and when they can worship and a chaplain has to have a hefty pair of balls to pray in the name of god in public. However, Muslims and other small groups can worship whenever and wherever...it doesn't matter if it is during mandatory training for things that they NEED to know in combat.

Smokers, a minority group that is being taxed and banned into a corner, that is also non-smoking, because we are evil scum that want to kill children and bartenders. Once we ruled the world and could evil give you a respiratory illness aboard an airplane because studies show that 2nd hand smoke immediately deals a 1,000,000 hit points to your manna. Now, well we can't even have exclusive smokers bars or clubs because apparently the non-smoking public is so stupid that they can't use simple decision making when entering a privately owned business.

Hell I don't give a flying fuck if gay people want to get married. Hell, they can even join the military and serve next to me for all I care. However, they will not meet the conditions that I set forth...we have to be EQUAL if they want that to happen. No, that will not happen. I am sorry but we shot for "equality" with a few things and ended up with the reciprocal to the problem. The "fix" for one group getting fucked over was just to fuck over the other group or just create more problems...we are using the same logic here.

[Epic_Fail_Guy]

Candyman that was a well thought out argument. Well brought up points using smoking as an analogy...

I do find it to be bullshit that christians are limited in they're prayer while muslims can do it whenever. All should have the same restrictions honestly.

One part that I still don't understand is how you think a gay person isn't equal to you... so a guy would rather plug it up a butt than a pussy.. that's a "personal choice" that doesn't alter or limit their mental, physical, or emotional potential compared if they opted the other way. (Disclaimer, i used "personal choice" for a reason, because it's their preference, whether their born that way or not isn't an argument I'm wishing to start, that is besides the point. I used personal choice because that does not limit one's potential such as being born without limbs or with a critical disease, ect.)

So you say that they must meet the conditions you set forth as being EQUAL... the point I've made above is how I fail to see how you think they are not equal to you.

What it boils down to in my opinion, is people hating on stuff they either refuse to, or can't understand and want to force their personal standards on everyone else so they don't have to deal with the discomfort of knowing there's shit out there they don't understand.

[candyman]

Candyman that was a well thought out argument. Well brought up points using smoking as an analogy...

I do find it to be bullshit that christians are limited in they're prayer while muslims can do it whenever. All should have the same restrictions honestly.

One part that I still don't understand is how you think a gay person isn't equal to you... so a guy would rather plug it up a butt than a pussy.. that's a "personal choice" that doesn't alter or limit their mental, physical, or emotional potential compared if they opted the other way. (Disclaimer, i used "personal choice" for a reason, because it's their preference, whether their born that way or not isn't an argument I'm wishing to start, that is besides the point. I used personal choice because that does not limit one's potential such as being born without limbs or with a critical disease, ect.)

So you say that they must meet the conditions you set forth as being EQUAL... the point I've made above is how I fail to see how you think they are not equal to you.

What it boils down to in my opinion, is people hating on stuff they either refuse to, or can't understand and want to force their personal standards on everyone else so they don't have to deal with the discomfort of knowing there's shit out there they don't understand.

I didn't really mean to say that they are not equal as far as MY opinion of them. My whole thing is that the equal that they end up with legally ends up either falling short or going way past the goal line.

I don't have a problem with anyone unless that specific person pisses me off. That being said I do have a different view of anyone that is outside me circle. So, I sit here in my ACU's with a rifle on my right and combat gear on my left...everyone else is "different" unless they can prove otherwise...that does not make them less equal.

This legal shit makes people that are "different" something else...they make them "special" instead of different. Shit every time I apply for a job I gotta check all of these bullshit boxes. Turns out that it really isn't so easy for a white dude to get a job after all even with 4 years of college and Master certification. Yeah, when these people that are "different" got their "equality" they somehow ended up with special little perks if you want to look at it that way. No I don't speak spanish but for some reason you now need to speak spanish to work on vehicles in a shop...damn we outsource WAY too much apparently.

I am going to end up in one of these "special" groups sometime too. Once I leave the military I can check one of those boxes that can get me a better chance at the job I really am not that qualified for. I don't really agree with that but I can't change it. Fuck, we are not creating equality for anyone if we are giving them boxes to check. We are just creating a legal strongarm which just screws over a different group of people. Equal means you all go for the job and the people that are qualified for it receive the position.

I would like to state again that I don't have anything against gay people at all. Two gay guys got chaptered out of the Army and they lived in my company area at the time. We knew about it but since they did the same things we did and made sure that the only difference between us and them was their sexual orientation we didn't give a shit. The person that turned them in was a prior service guy that took his Airborne pride to the max and lives the Army life the old school way. The soldiers next to me are from all different races and religious backgrounds...also some have different orientations if you want to put it that way...but we all pull the same shit here be it good or bad. You can be "different"...but why the fuck should your treatment be different than everyone else's? The whole equality thing kinda preaches out against that right?

[freydis]

I am sorry, but you are tragically incorrect. Pedophilia, Homosexuality, Heterosexuality are ALL orientations in sexual preference. Yes, I understand it is against the law for an adult to act out sexually with a minor. We all knot it is illegal.

By calling it a disorder, you are committing the same kind of discrimination against pedophiles as was committed against gays way back when. It was called a disorder then, and now it is freely accepted.

I am not connecting anything. I am stating fact. And as hard as it is for some random hetero to understand someone can be "born gay", this must be equally difficult for people to understand that people are born with the wiring to be attracted to children.

What's going on here, and what has gone on here for some time, is that when someone disagrees with an opinion here, they are either labeled as "uneducated" or they are put on filter or banned. It's rather funny that this happens, since being this board has alot of outspoken people in regards to politics/freedom of speech/choice, but the minute a voice of opposition shows up with credible opposite opinions, people get more up-in-arms than christians at a gay parade.

Pot calling kettle black?

fo shoooo

Fact? Seriously?

Again, you're proving your ignorance.

There's been scientific brain study on chemical reactions of male and female brain patterns. There's also been study showing what then were thought to be male/female chemical brain pattern and reactions in members of the sex opposite to what those reactions were patterned to. That research is going a long way to proving homosexuality could be hard wired into a brain.

Pedophaelia is not a sexual preference. Apples and oranges, dude. We arent talking sex/gender, we're talking age. That's like saying a preference or obsession with redheads is a sexual preference that people are born with. Your argument is absurd. And calling it fact without some form of arguemental proof? Show me some studies that arent sponsored by NAMBLA, k?

Edited September 1, 2010 by freydis

[Rev.Reverence]

:rofl: :rofl:

[Epic_Fail_Guy]

I didn't really mean to say that they are not equal as far as MY opinion of them. My whole thing is that the equal that they end up with legally ends up either falling short or going way past the goal line.

I don't have a problem with anyone unless that specific person pisses me off. That being said I do have a different view of anyone that is outside me circle. So, I sit here in my ACU's with a rifle on my right and combat gear on my left...everyone else is "different" unless they can prove otherwise...that does not make them less equal.

This legal shit makes people that are "different" something else...they make them "special" instead of different. Shit every time I apply for a job I gotta check all of these bullshit boxes. Turns out that it really isn't so easy for a white dude to get a job after all even with 4 years of college and Master certification. Yeah, when these people that are "different" got their "equality" they somehow ended up with special little perks if you want to look at it that way. No I don't speak spanish but for some reason you now need to speak spanish to work on vehicles in a shop...damn we outsource WAY too much apparently.

I am going to end up in one of these "special" groups sometime too. Once I leave the military I can check one of those boxes that can get me a better chance at the job I really am not that qualified for. I don't really agree with that but I can't change it. Fuck, we are not creating equality for anyone if we are giving them boxes to check. We are just creating a legal strongarm which just screws over a different group of people. Equal means you all go for the job and the people that are qualified for it receive the position.

I would like to state again that I don't have anything against gay people at all. Two gay guys got chaptered out of the Army and they lived in my company area at the time. We knew about it but since they did the same things we did and made sure that the only difference between us and them was their sexual orientation we didn't give a shit. The person that turned them in was a prior service guy that took his Airborne pride to the max and lives the Army life the old school way. The soldiers next to me are from all different races and religious backgrounds...also some have different orientations if you want to put it that way...but we all pull the same shit here be it good or bad. You can be "different"...but why the fuck should your treatment be different than everyone else's? The whole equality thing kinda preaches out against that right?

Ok thanks, you didn't need to get into a legnthy speach or anything, sorry if i came across like that, I was just curious what you were getting at.

It's actually something I can agree to.. when people seem to fight for their rights.. they do get special perks...

[the eternal]

You know it's funny I was just checking to see what Mstrbeaus up to (I have a constantly bouncing ball of tangents running through my head, and I thought of him because I posted about the DGN thanksgiving you're all coming to, Thursday Nov 25th, and he was a big part of making it happen last year and--SEE you're in the middle of one my tangents right now---having fun yet?)

Anyway, I'm floored that we're all taking so much time to take on one misguided, misinformed bigot, when this whole thread was posted to celebrate a comprehensive, fact filled judgment with several friend briefs and a mountain of evidence to support it.

Bottom line--no matter how he dresses it up, he, and the socially conservative movement, wants you to equate being gay with being a pedophile. Conservatives have done it for decades.

It's stupid but effective.

It taps into our fears of being taken advantage of.

No one likes a pedophile. They're terrifying people and heartless because they take away a child's innocence.

Why do you think they're the most hated and abused in prison?

The other thing that everyone's talking about in this thread,

and in this one, you're playing into his hands completely and unquestioningly, is:

this Bob Saget game show where you have to be smarter than a variety of people to win a million dollars, but you know they'll get overzealous and lose it all and be embarrassed on national television and their kids'll hate him forever, even though they were the ones egging him on in the first place to keep going and---

WAIT A SEC--that's 1 vs 100.

I'm sorry. The stupid overblown argument we all unseemingly took at face value is this 1 vs 7 million argument.

Justifying that we let the one person (judge) win and over turn the will of the American people.

Um, unless only 7 mill voted it wasn't 1 vs 7 mill.

In fact if only 53% voted for Prop 8,

AND if it is true that (inserting BOOMING ominous voice) 7 MILLION people were ignored and their will was DENIED,

doesn't that mean that 6.5 MILLION people were heard and validated?

I'm not even going into Gaf's argument because although well-reasoned and thought out, it's real world application is zero.

We will never EVER overturn marriage, so it's just an easy cop-out IMHO.

What WILL happen, is, if this decision gets upheld,

California equality will be the first step toward complete federal marriage equality.

Which is extremely important, because federally, there are hundreds of laws and benefits that are denied

to same sex couples.

HERES THE OTHER THING-- As long as there is civil unions for one minority group and marriage for the rest of us,

same sex couples will ALWAYS have a psychological second class status,

as if somehow their union has less validity than straight couples's union.

Oh, and in a rich twist of irony, those truly disturbed, sick, people who touch children:

DO have all those nice rights and protections, as THEY can marry,

and yet somehow those great federal protections (and in most places, state and city) are denied to two loving consenting people of the same sex.

That's even more unbelievable than the longevity of this guy's career.

Edited September 2, 2010 by the eternal

[KatRN05]

You know it's funny I was just checking to see what Mstrbeaus up to (I have a constantly bouncing ball of tangents running through my head, and I thought of him because I posted about the DGN thanksgiving you're all coming to, Thursday Nov 25th, and he was a big part of making it happen last year and--SEE you're in the middle of one my tangents right now---having fun yet?)

Anyway, I'm floored that we're all taking so much time to take on one misguided, misinformed bigot, when this whole thread was posted to celebrate a comprehensive, fact filled judgment with several friend briefs and a mountain of evidence to support it.

Bottom line--no matter how he dresses it up, he, and the socially conservative movement, wants you to equate being gay with being a pedophile. Conservatives have done it for decades.

It's stupid but effective.

It taps into our fears of being taken advantage of.

No one likes a pedophile. They're terrifying people and heartless because they take away a child's innocence.

Why do you think they're the most hated and abused in prison?

The other thing that everyone's talking about in this thread,

and in this one, you're playing into his hands completely and unquestioningly, is:

this Bob Saget game show where you have to be smarter than a variety of people to win a million dollars, but you know they'll get overzealous and lose it all and be embarrassed on national television and their kids'll hate him forever, even though they were the ones egging him on in the first place to keep going and---

WAIT A SEC--that's 1 vs 100.

I'm sorry. The stupid overblown argument we all unseemingly took at face value is this 1 vs 7 million argument.

Justifying that we let the one person (judge) win and over turn the will of the American people.

Um, unless only 7 mill voted it wasn't 1 vs 7 mill.

In fact if only 53% voted for Prop 8,

AND if it is true that (inserting BOOMING ominous voice) 7 MILLION people were ignored and their will was DENIED,

doesn't that mean that 6.5 MILLION people were heard and validated?

I'm not even going into Gaf's argument because although well-reasoned and thought out, it's real world application is zero.

We will never EVER overturn marriage, so it's just an easy cop-out IMHO.

What WILL happen, is, if this decision gets upheld,

California equality will be the first step toward complete federal marriage equality.

Which is extremely important, because federally, there are hundreds of laws and benefits that are denied

to same sex couples.

HERES THE OTHER THING-- As long as there is civil unions for one minority group and marriage for the rest of us,

same sex couples will ALWAYS have a psychological second class status,

as if somehow their union has less validity than straight couples's union.

Oh, and in a rich twist of irony, those truly disturbed, sick, people who touch children:

DO have all those nice rights and protections, as THEY can marry,

and yet somehow those great federal protections (and in most places, state and city) are denied to two loving consenting people of the same sex.

That's even more unbelievable than the longevity of this guy's career.

:unworthy: :unworthy: :unworthy: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[the eternal]

:unworthy: :unworthy: :unworthy: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Just don't beat my ass with a paddle again and we'll be solid

[KatRN05]

Just don't beat my ass with a paddle again and we'll be solid

Deal.

[freydis]

Thank you, E.

:unworthy:

[Rev.Reverence]

[machine]

That much is true. Pedophilia isn't a sexual orientation AT ALL. Interestingly enough, of the pedophiles in the world, regardless of the gender of their victims, they otherwise identify, and often maintain relationships of the sort, as HETEROSEXUALS, in about the SAME percentile as heterosexual non-pedophiles (90%).

As a matter of FACT, it is. It is exactly like homosexuality, heterosexuality, ilovecartailpipessexuality.

And to call it a disorder, like homosexuality used to be refereed, is absolutely bigoted pedophobic. You are practicing HATE SPEECH if you discriminate against pedophiles. They are JUST like the rest of us straight, gay, trans gender humans.

[freydis]

As a matter of FACT, it is. It is exactly like homosexuality, heterosexuality, ilovecartailpipessexuality.

And to call it a disorder, like homosexuality used to be refereed, is absolutely bigoted pedophobic. You are practicing HATE SPEECH if you discriminate against pedophiles. They are JUST like the rest of us straight, gay, trans gender humans.

I'm done arguing with you. You're presenting ridiculous statements with no support. I already said "Provide me a link to something supporting this that isnt backed by NAMBLA", and you havent. A five minute search in google finds thousands of references refuting your claim. If you refuse to debate in a rational manner, then I have nothing further to say to you on the matter.

[Rev.Reverence]

WOW...what a jacked point of view...hope yer fixed..

[Epic_Fail_Guy]

As a matter of FACT, it is. It is exactly like homosexuality, heterosexuality, ilovecartailpipessexuality.

And to call it a disorder, like homosexuality used to be refereed, is absolutely bigoted pedophobic. You are practicing HATE SPEECH if you discriminate against pedophiles. They are JUST like the rest of us straight, gay, trans gender humans.

Here's a present for you machine, you can thank me later.

[taysteewonderbunny]

Here's a present for you machine, you can thank me later.

Yer link iz broked.