Abortion

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

since we've gone from religion to choices...and yes folks...it's be an interesting week....I decided, thanks to Spook for bringing it up, that we'll go ahead and verbally wrassle...again....with the most debated topic in all of our pop culture: Abortion

Many people, specifically feminists (may the gods burn you bitches in Hades), have argued for decades that they have a RIGHT to an abortion of a fetus, as it's their body, and in that manner, they have a choice, much like making a choice to amputate a limb.

The other side of the arguement is that, because the fetus has a seperate brainwave and seperate heartbeat, that it is therefore a seperate entity then the mother, that it is an act of 1st degree murder. You will find me on this side of the arguement every damn time.

IMO: it is murder...plain and simple. It is NOT a limb, or an organ of the body, because it has seperate functions and a seperate brainwave pattern. It has it's OWN DNA...it is, at conception, a unique entity. There is tons of medical proof of this. There was a case a few years back: a drunk driver hit a pregnant woman in her car. She survived, but the fetus dies in the womb. He is currently serving a sentence of 15 years for Vehicular Homicide. She was on her way to get an abortion that day.

Also...don't try the "product of rape" bit please. Ok...it's terriable that you were raped. I understand the trauma. But to DENY another person their right to an existance is what the crimes of Homicide are all BASED ON.

Either way it's cut...our founding judicial laws, laid upon simple moral standings, state that what an Abortion is in real life: Murder.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Not sure how to word my response so as to not piss off everyone on both sides of the debate.

I am Pro-Choice. I also happen to consider Life as one of the choices. From this point it gets complicated.

A. I do believe abortion within the first Trimester should be legal.

1. There is no chance that a fetus at this stage could ever live without the mothers womb or some artificial environment that we have as yet to discover the means of creating.
2. Ectopic pregnancy. The is no way that a baby can be produced from this happening. It is most assuredly going to ensure that the mother is going to suffer and most likely die.

B. I believe that a girl wanting an abortion under the age of 18 should have parental consent.

1. Legally, in all other regards, the parents are fully responsible for all decisions with regards to a minor. They are held labile, to some degree, for everything that minor does or says.
2. I don't believe children are equipped emotionally for this type of decision and the emotional toil that deciding either way is going to have on them. They, the parents, better be damned sure of their decision though... they have to live with what their decision does to their child's life and mental state.

C. I believe, to some extent, that Father's Rights are under represented.

1. I believe that if a Man is willing to legally cut all ties to any child born, he should not have to pay child support for a child that he in no way wanted. A declaration, legally binding, would need to be made during the pregnancy.
2. In the same breath I am going to add that the Child Support system needs a major over haul to better serve the rights of involved. Custodial, non-custodial parents and most importantly, the child.

D. I don't think that the way it was made "legal" was the proper way to do it.

1. It got past constitutional review on grounds of Privacy under the 14th Amendment. It's not really legal under Federal Law. What is Illegal, is asking anyone if they have had one, performed one and been witness to one.
2. I think that a whole set of REAL laws needs to go through the normal debate and edit process by Congress and then at the President's desk for Signature into Law. When thats ready, run an bill through the Amendment process to make Abortion legal... the carrot for passage being the set of bills being signed into Law by the President. If the laws are already drawn up with some real guarantee that smart regulation is already in place, the chance of ratification goes way up.

I am going to end there for now.. I could go on for a while with how I feel on this.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Not sure how to word my response so as to not piss off everyone on both sides of the debate.

I am Pro-Choice. I also happen to consider Life as one of the choices. From this point it gets complicated.

A. I do believe abortion within the first Trimester should be legal.

1. There is no chance that a fetus at this stage could ever live without the mothers womb or some artificial environment that we have as yet to discover the means of creating.
   
2. Ectopic pregnancy. The is no way that a baby can be produced from this happening. It is most assuredly going to ensure that the mother is going to suffer and most likely die.
   I understand about the lack of survival without the womb...but it still has it's own brain waves and dna....how can that not be a form of homicide??

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Homicide is killing a Human Being. Though I agree that a fetus is Life, has it's own brain waves and it's own DNA... Is it Human? Or at that point, Human Potential?

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Homicide is killing a Human Being. Though I agree that a fetus is Life, has it's own brain waves and it's own DNA... Is it Human? Or at that point, Human Potential?

no offense, Gaf...but thats a rather poor remark. There are people alive NOW that don't make any use of "human potential".

They have no chance to prove if they will have human potential or not at that point...so what right do we have to take that right FOR a chance in the future away from them?? Thats like me coming up to you, putting a gun to your head, and telling you to do something worth being called "human potential", and if you can't do something that any other animal on earth can do...or something unique, I get to kill you

thats honestly a very short, if not non-existant, list of things.

[Michiko_Dreads]

Im pro abortion, murder or whatever you want to call it. I dont care for the "religious" side of it or the legal side of it. I think if a woman is pregnant and knows that she cant take care of the baby, isnt ready or just doesnt want the baby she can get an abortion. Alot of people say have the baby and do adoption. Most women dont want to go that far with a pregnancy just to give up the baby. A full term pregnancy puts alot on a females body. Then think about it when its time for your job to send you home for your maternity leave your broke until your back at work, your giving birth to a baby you dont want. You could have complications with a pregnancy that you didnt want. Your paying for shit you donr need like maternity clothes, emergency room visits, extra food and crap on top of crap. If a woman doesnt want a baby she has the right to have an abortion. There is nothing wrong with abortions in my eyes.

Its not up to the law or your "god" anyway its up to the knocked up bitch crying on her bathroom floor.

[Guest Megalicious]

I'm Pro-Choice. What a woman wants to do with her body is up to her and her alone, PERIOD!

Honestly, MOST of the girl that have know that have had abortions where not in a position to be good mothers. I feel (and I know this is fucked up to say but sometime the truth is brutal) The babies/fetuses that were due to be born were better off being aborted.

The thing that I can't stand is one Women use it as a form of birth control, I think they should limit the amount of abortions that state funding will pay for to just one/lifetime (meaning Medicaid/medical what ever the fuck they call it) . I can see if someone make the mistake once, but to made it twice is just both juvenile and irresponsible when there a plenty of options out there to prevent pregnancy.

Taken from older abortion thread.

Still feel the same.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Im pro abortion, murder or whatever you want to call it. I dont care for the "religious" side of it or the legal side of it. I think if a woman is pregnant and knows that she cant take care of the baby, isnt ready or just doesnt want the baby she can get an abortion. Alot of people say have the baby and do adoption. Most women dont want to go that far with a pregnancy just to give up the baby. A full term pregnancy puts alot on a females body. Then think about it when its time for your job to send you home for your maternity leave your broke until your back at work, your giving birth to a baby you dont want. You could have complications with a pregnancy that you didnt want. Your paying for shit you donr need like maternity clothes, emergency room visits, extra food and crap on top of crap. If a woman doesnt want a baby she has the right to have an abortion. There is nothing wrong with abortions in my eyes.

Its not up to the law or your "god" anyway its up to the knocked up bitch crying on her bathroom floor.

yeah...and that "knocked up bitch" gets to DEAL with the events in her life that lead to this.

and as far as "if she just doesn't want it" track of the arguement...thats a load of horseshyt..because then a murderer can argue that HE didn't want the victim, and thats why he killed her. But wait...it's ok for a woman to do that to an unborn baby??...yeah...doesn't even have wings to fly.

the way your defending it...if the child gets born...and at ANYTIME after, the mother should have the right to KILL the child, and not suffer consequences.

Thats why it's murder....because if you can't do it legally after birth, you shouldn't be able to do it before. Life fucks alot of things up....dealing with those things is the majority of anyone's life.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

"What a woman wants to do with her body is up to her and her alone, PERIOD!"

Taken from older abortion thread.

Still feel the same.

cept it's not her body. A fetus is not classified as a limb or an organ, and therefore not a regular part of the human anatomy...and therefore not part of her body.

[Guest Megalicious]

cept it's not her body.

Uhh. I have a child, I have been pregnant, and yes, it was my body and having my son was my choice.

I believe no one has the right to tell anyone else to make the "right" choice by keeping a child. The "right" choice is what ever is right for the person.

Its my opinion, and last time I checked I was entitled to it.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Uhh. I have a child, I have been pregnant, and yes, it was my body and having my son was my choice.

I believe no one has the right to tell anyone else to make the "right" choice by keeping a child. The "right" choice is what ever is right for the person.

Its my opinion, and last time I checked I was entitled to it.

then under that logic, I should legally be able to shoot any woman that has had an abortion....same differance.

and honestly...being pregnant...your body was a VESSEL....it was being USED....by something that is SEPERATE from you...unique and alive.

If I can't shoot them...then abortion (which is the SAME THING), shouldn't be legal.

the ONLY reason that it should even be performed is as an EMERGANCY proceedure to preserve the life of the mother...thats it.

[Guest Megalicious]

then under that logic, I should legally be able to shoot any woman that has had an abortion....same differance.

and honestly...being pregnant...your body was a VESSEL....it was being USED....by something that is SEPERATE from you...unique and alive.

If I can't shoot them...then abortion (which is the SAME THING), shouldn't be legal.

the ONLY reason that it should even be performed is as an EMERGANCY proceedure to preserve the life of the mother...thats it.

Its my opinion, and last time I checked I was entitled to it.

If you can not comprehend the above statement, I suggest you re-read it.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I think you misunderstood my use of human potential.

What I meant was, clinically, a fetus is not a "human". It is a human fetus... It may become a human or it may die.

[freydis]

I think you misunderstood my use of human potential.

What I meant was, clinically, a fetus is not a "human". It is a human fetus... It may become a human or it may die.

Exactly. Until it can survive outside the womb, it's not a human, in the same way that a caterpillar isnt a butterfly.

Also, over the ages, many societies and religions have had wildly different interpretations of when a fetus or even an infant is considered human.

[phee]

I am going to take it even further.... you know how some religions believe that the "life" of the child begins at conception? Why stop there I think life begins at the "initiation of conception" in other words ladies, if you turn down sex ever.... you are killing a baby. I mean if a woman doesn't have sex for a month, that is a wasted egg and if a guy jerks off that same month that is a sperm that never had a chance to meet with that egg.... it's murder.

*Sarcasm... sorry.... I use it a lot*

[Destroit]

Im pro abortion, murder or whatever you want to call it. I dont care for the "religious" side of it or the legal side of it. I think if a woman is pregnant and knows that she cant take care of the baby, isnt ready or just doesnt want the baby she can get an abortion. Alot of people say have the baby and do adoption. Most women dont want to go that far with a pregnancy just to give up the baby. A full term pregnancy puts alot on a females body. Then think about it when its time for your job to send you home for your maternity leave your broke until your back at work, your giving birth to a baby you dont want. You could have complications with a pregnancy that you didnt want. Your paying for shit you donr need like maternity clothes, emergency room visits, extra food and crap on top of crap. If a woman doesnt want a baby she has the right to have an abortion. There is nothing wrong with abortions in my eyes.

Its not up to the law or your "god" anyway its up to the knocked up bitch crying on her bathroom floor.

...

...then...maybe...she should have thought about that before spreading her legs so carelessly?

Any woman who gets an abortion is selfish, imo. Rape is the only exception to this rule.

If you wanna play then sometimes you end up paying. Everyone knows this before having sex. It's like drinkin and driving...before you get behind the wheel you KNOW that you may kill someone...if you don't want to spend years in jail for killing someone...call a taxi. It's that simple.

If you don't want to spend the next 18 years of your life taking care of a kid...keep your vagina closed for business. It's simple and it works.

That's why I don't understand wtf feminists support it...they should be against abortion. It shows women's true colors of being selfish, immature, weak, and all about themselves imo.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

I am going to take it even further.... you know how some religions believe that the "life" of the child begins at conception? Why stop there I think life begins at the "initiation of conception" in other words ladies, if you turn down sex ever.... you are killing a baby. I mean if a woman doesn't have sex for a month, that is a wasted egg and if a guy jerks off that same month that is a sperm that never had a chance to meet with that egg.... it's murder.

*Sarcasm... sorry.... I use it a lot*

cept I'm not even taking it from a religious standpoint....I'm taking it from a judicial standpoint with comparisions to common crimes

and no-one likes the fact that it FITS....

[Guest Megalicious]

If you don't want to spend the next 18 years of your life taking care of a kid...keep your vagina closed for business. It's simple and it works.

As much as opinions differ, I could help but laugh my ass off at this. Limeade came out of my nose!

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

If you can not comprehend the above statement, I suggest you re-read it.

and I think the chance to live, and become whatever the HUMAN ENTITY within your body will become is more valuable, and important..then your opinion...because their ENTITLED to that chance.

[phee]

cept I'm not even taking it from a religious standpoint....I'm taking it from a judicial standpoint with comparisions to common crimes

and no-one likes the fact that it FITS....

Beware the can of worms that you are opening with "taking it from a judicial standpoint with comparisions to common crimes"... how many things are legal that resemble common crimes?

[Guest Megalicious]

and I think the chance to live, and become whatever the HUMAN ENTITY within your body will become is more valuable, and important..then your opinion...because their ENTITLED to that chance.

EXACTLY, the KEY WORDS BEING YOU THINK!

Re-read what you just wrote.

It's one thing to have an opinion, its a WHOLE different ball game when you try to FORCE your vaules/beliefs on to someone else.

So what is right in your mind is NOT right for everyone.

I'm not debating with you, because in your head your total right, and in mine I'M right. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. The best we can do is agree that we disagree.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

EXACTLY, the KEY WORDS BEING YOU THINK!

Re-read what you just wrote.

It's one thing to have an opinion, its a WHOLE different ball game when you try to FORCE your vaules/beliefs on to someone else.

So what is right in your mind is NOT right for everyone.

I'm not debating with you, because in your head your total right, and in mine I'M right. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. The best we can do is agree that we disagree.

but thats whats happening...the right/ chance to live is FORCIBLY being taken away from a living entity.

I'm just trying to figure out how hitting a pregnant woman in a car, and killing the child, equals a homicide, even if that woman was on the way to an abortion clinic? Why shoudl the person be tried for murder if the mother isn't going to be.

and the only way to fix the judicial problem is to settle on one side or another: if the fetus isn't a living, seperate entity, then killing the child inside the womb, from a car accident, shouldn't be considered murder. If it is to be judicially considered murder, then the act of abortion should be considered the same.

[phee]

but thats whats happening...the right/ chance to live is FORCIBLY being taken away from a living entity.

Do you "THINK" this is true? OR do you "KNOW" this is true....earlier you stated you "THINK" this is true

[Oh_My_Goth]

*looks around*

I may get some hate for this.....

I am Pro-choice/Pro-abortion.....

The world is populated.....If people cannot keep there legs closed, or guys can't pull out {yes, even when she is on the pill}

AND they can not care for a child {financially/emotionally}{especially emotionally}, then Abort.....

Perhaps we would not have as many useless people is this world if people would stop breeding like animals, and think before they fuck.....Shit if that happened we would not even need abortion.....

**I know.....I sound like a total ass hole, but hey.....It is just Me opinion.....& I think I am right.....

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Do you "THINK" this is true? OR do you "KNOW" this is true....earlier you stated you "THINK" this is true

It is my OPINION, based on facts, that abortion is wrong

what I KNOW is that a fetus has a seperate DNA, heartbeat, and brain wave activity then the mother.

I KNOW that if you hit a pregnant woman with a car, and the fetus dies, that you get charged with nothing LESS then vehicular homicide...not manslaughter....homicide.

I KNOW that there have already been two cases where the former mothers already stated, in court, that they were one the way to abort the baby.

I KNOW that the drivers were sentenced anyway.

I KNOW that, according to law books, murder is tried on the basis of taking another person's life by force.

I KNOW that I have been through three dead children because their mothers self-aborted them, then told me AFTER....and that clinical abortions, without consent of BOTH parties (the biological mother AND father), happen on a regular basis.

so my personal opinion is based on well documented facts, not religious beliefs.

based on the facts...what makes abortion different then murder??