Religious Freedom In Waterford, Mi?

[Msterbeau]

No, never seen the place... but if the yard is that big... that helps the Church a bit when it comes times to test the dB levels.

If it helps to have the big property... and they're disturbing people still... that means they're REALLY loud, right?

[Rayne]

If it helps to have the big property... and they're disturbing people still... that means they're REALLY loud, right?

That's what I was thinking. There are some residences pretty close to their building.

[Msterbeau]

That maybe so. But then how far will it go? The way I see it, an attack on anyone's religions freedom is an attack on everyone's religions freedom.

The problem I have with this statement is why should one person's rights in one area (religion) tread on another persons, in another area? What if one person's religious expression infringes on another's? Who wins?

[DeadBurgerKing (10)]

*thank you Rayne for the image of the church!*

I got to say, there is no WAY that building could produce 70 db from a neighboring yard. The only way that would be possible is if the building was completely hollow inside, all doors (leading outside) and windows were open and the speakers placed inside the circular alcove on the second floor were the sound would continuously bounce back and forth and echo out through the widows. That circular alcove COULD trap sound in and ricochet it out the windows like a slingshot. But that's assuming the speakers are up in that alcove.

But, I assume this building isn't hollow, that there are many doors and walls inside. Those in themselves act as a slight muffling. IF the building was producing 70 db at the neighboring yard (the same sound as a vacuum cleaner 2 feet away from you) the church's patrons ears would be bleeding and heads would be exploding!! Could you imagine the decibel level INSIDE??

I'm not going to bother speaking of religion here, because I firmly believe that it has NOTHING to do religion. I think you guys are on the right track here of it being something personal, nothing more...

[Draco1958]

That maybe so. But then how far will it go? The way I see it, an attack on anyone's religions freedom is an attack on everyone's religions freedom.

So requiring a church to turn down the volume on it's music is an attack on religious freedom??

What if there was a neighboring church whose tennents(sp?) required quiet meditation and the loud music interrupted that? One churches freedom would infringe on the other's.

I read this whole thread and all I can say is WTF??? Asking a church to turn down the music is not religious persecution altho some seem to be leaning that way. And let's not forget the corrupt prosecutor theory. Why is it so difficult to accept that the church may be in the wrong? Churches are NOT perfect. Church leaders are human after all and can make mistakes. I am so tired of the "if you don't support religion on this you are anti-christian" philosophy some people have on here. I have seen lots of snipes all around. Enough people, we are adults, let's act like one and not a 1st grader. I don't know why the prosecutor went to the church and truthfully I don't care. That's not the issue. The issue is the volume of the music. As far as the Ford Rd bar question goes, I have seen the police show up at a bar to tell them to turn down the volume or close. After reading 6 pages of this thread I got the opinion that some believe this is an attack on the church and nothing else matters and if you don't agree, shame on you(and I am keeping it polite). This is ridiculous. Just because someone can believe the church could be in the wrong does not make them anti-christian so please quit throwing that comment/inuendo out. It is childish. As to the question about the motivation of people because they want the church to buy their houses, why not question the motivation of the church because they did offer to buy them first. Maybe the church new the loud music would be an issue and wanted to avoid the problem. Oh wait, that question means I am anti-christian doesn't it?? I have seen a thread that could have been a great debate turn into a snipe fest. Adults turning into children over nothing. Personally I think this thread should be locked since it seems more and more snipes are appearing in responses. Oh and for the record before I am accused of being anti-christian, I am a Catholic.

[Steven]

So requiring a church to turn down the volume on it's music is an attack on religious freedom??

What if there was a neighboring church whose tennents(sp?) required quiet meditation and the loud music interrupted that? One churches freedom would infringe on the other's.

I read this whole thread and all I can say is WTF??? Asking a church to turn down the music is not religious persecution altho some seem to be leaning that way. And let's not forget the corrupt prosecutor theory. Why is it so difficult to accept that the church may be in the wrong? Churches are NOT perfect. Church leaders are human after all and can make mistakes. I am so tired of the "if you don't support religion on this you are anti-christian" philosophy some people have on here. I have seen lots of snipes all around. Enough people, we are adults, let's act like one and not a 1st grader. I don't know why the prosecutor went to the church and truthfully I don't care. That's not the issue. The issue is the volume of the music. As far as the Ford Rd bar question goes, I have seen the police show up at a bar to tell them to turn down the volume or close. After reading 6 pages of this thread I got the opinion that some believe this is an attack on the church and nothing else matters and if you don't agree, shame on you(and I am keeping it polite). This is ridiculous. Just because someone can believe the church could be in the wrong does not make them anti-christian so please quit throwing that comment/inuendo out. It is childish. As to the question about the motivation of people because they want the church to buy their houses, why not question the motivation of the church because they did offer to buy them first. Maybe the church new the loud music would be an issue and wanted to avoid the problem. Oh wait, that question means I am anti-christian doesn't it?? I have seen a thread that could have been a great debate turn into a snipe fest. Adults turning into children over nothing. Personally I think this thread should be locked since it seems more and more snipes are appearing in responses. Oh and for the record before I am accused of being anti-christian, I am a Catholic.

usually a chruch wants to buy the surrounding lots or properties for expansion.

every church Ive been a member of, has done this - and every time it had to do with new buildings, or office conversions, etc.

[Sybil]

Actually, as a Christian, I don't see how this has to do with Christianity so much as disturbing the peace.

The same thing happened in Hamtramck with the muslim people there, the people who weren't muslim were mad that they constantly had to hear the call to prayer BLASTING out of speakers and going all over town.

I think if you're being too loud and distubing the peace then you should have to be more quiet. Just because they're Christian doesn't mean they're above the law...unless they're Jesus. Jesus is above the law .

hmmm...

Didnt Jesus even follow laws though because He didnt want to be a "cause for blame" or whatever.... we are supposed to love our neighbors.

We are supposed to love God with our whole self.....

and love our neighbors.

With our lovely modern technology, -I- think we can Give God many Thanks a titchity touch quiter. JUST SO WE DONT OFFEND SOMEONE ELSE.

I say all this very gently because I am all about finding reasons to say thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But I am also very sensitive when it comes to trying to be considerate so people dont hate me for doing something good...

[Sybil]

Because I dont think this church is being persecuted from the outside, I think its being persecuted from within.

No - not from within that specific chruch - but from within a faction of traditional old school religiosity.

I think there are a few people in Waterford who know a few people.

And the one spearheading this thing....is quite probably a Christian....a much more "traditionalist" type of Christian....as are the "complainers" (of whom I'd be curious to see how many actually step forward into the public eye to test the mettle of their true convictions as opposed to letting the badges take the heat).

I dont think this is really about noise. Not at all.

I think its about loud ROCK music being used in a church format....ie the "innapropriateness" of the music in question, and that the charge of "distrubing the police" is a faux sheild for expressive control.

there goes the martyr theory boyz - but that's just me, and i'm strange like that. (plus I've seen this kind of thign happen before)

Uh Oh.... Sybil go a touch off topic now....

SOOOO.... I was "taught" that rap cant "praise God"... BUT, just because a certain style of music isnt my fave thing to dance to, I say this -- A person's heart and soul cant be seen by me. But I think if someone is doing a rap song (KJ52 to name one artist) and their HEART is hollering with excitement and they are so happy and thankful to God for some thing that happened in their life, then "YAY" sing on rap artist. Sing on. If its uplifting.. if its honest.. if its full of heart and soul, then who are we to judge style? (now.. i already left a comment about being too loud. I have a gentle but firm stance on that.)

[Sybil]

by the way I've noticed that nobody touched the Bar on Ford road comparison that I offerred up.

different circumstance..

I used to live above a jazz/blues bar in Hamtramck called "The Attic".

It was LOUD all the time.... I never minded it though. And it didnt keep me up at night.. (they made music til 3am.. even after the bar closed, if I remember correctly..)

Uh yea, the bar was RIGHT UNDER MY BED, MAN.

[Steven]

last night at my show, my firend Myrl came to see the band. Myrl goes to this church and is a part of this whole situation were all discussing. He told me that the police have denied entering teh church at all, and that the prosecuter has denied coming in stating that "this rock music is innapropriate for church".

but because most major sized churches tape everything on video and also run and tape audio (the pastor had his mic clip on) its all on both video and audio feed. We do taht at our church - even in practices, so that production can be reveiwed and glitches can be troubleshot - especially sound a lighting glitches. Anyway - the evidence is apparently there and the police and prosecuter did not know it.

its in federal court now as most of you know.

the church is suing for a couple of million, the plans are (if they win) to take 10% off the top as a tithe, and give the rest out to various charities.

thats the only update I have thus far.