For The Music Snobs

[LuluVox]

Wall of fame:

"I am human and I need to be loved; just like everybody else does."

"Kompressor watch you die because Kompressor does not dance."

Stupidest lyrics ever:

"..hard to be faithful: with the eyes of an angel.."

HIGH FIVE

[glc]

how bout over compression? or... um... the way engineers will piece together music instead of just letting the band play through it, or......... auratones? c'mon there must be something trivial that'll get you started!!

Auratones piss me off actually, now that I think about it

[BrassFusion]

oo. what's an auratone?

[sinmantyx]

how bout over compression? or... um... the way engineers will piece together music instead of just letting the band play through it, or......... auratones? c'mon there must be something trivial that'll get you started!!

Auratones piss me off actually, now that I think about it

hehehe: over-compression?

At school we called those sound files: "hot dogs"

I think the modern ear is really used to that - if any modern human actually hears a honest-to-god sound-level induced dynamic, I think it creates some sort of panic response.

There is a place for it: without compressing the living shit out of something - generally it's going to go in and out of being masked by car-noise. I'm pretty sure that is why it is done.

Otherwise: not a huge fan.

Auratones? I have no idea what that is. (googling now)

PS: The speakers or the band or it is something else? Do tell.

[sinmantyx]

oh man sin, bring the terminology, you're making me all moist

and did you know that a sustained note on a french horn can form the closest thing to a sine wave of pretty much any instrument? it's true! i've played my horn into an oscilloscope and gotten a perfect sine wave.

same thing happened of course when i sang "oo" really carefully. that was a fun class

Bowed strings make a pretty square wave with a jiggle. The square wave is created because the sound is produced by a traveling discontinuity back-and-forth across the string's length. The jiggle is from the torsional wave induced by the bowing motion: twisting the string every-so-slightly.

Still wet?

[phee]

how bout over compression? or... um... the way engineers will piece together music instead of just letting the band play through it, or......... auratones? c'mon there must be something trivial that'll get you started!!

Auratones piss me off actually, now that I think about it

I have heard some of the most awesome music get uttery CRUSHED by over compression/over production. I have a friend who consistantly writes amazing music... and then someone else gets there hands on it and "produces" it... and I have deep sighs

[glc]

yeah, auratones - the speakers. those things are so overrated. I don't care if they relate to the real world, I like to monitor on nice speakers that don't fatigue me after 5 minutes.

I hear you Phee, what is it with mastering engineers in particular that just want to compress the crap out of your music. I mean, it is possible to compress transparently, but they just slam the limiiters on there and suck and pump out any beautiful life straight out of it.

And while I'm on the topic of mastering engineers, if the mix engineer did a good enough job, why does it need mastering? this is something that has always bugged me.

[phee]

yeah, auratones - the speakers. those things are so overrated. I don't care if they relate to the real world, I like to monitor on nice speakers that don't fatigue me after 5 minutes.

I hear you Phee, what is it with mastering engineers in particular that just want to compress the crap out of your music. I mean, it is possible to compress transparently, but they just slam the limiiters on there and suck and pump out any beautiful life straight out of it.

And while I'm on the topic of mastering engineers, if the mix engineer did a good enough job, why does it need mastering? this is something that has always bugged me.

Mixing and Mastering serve 2 different purposes. I could look up the actual definition but basically mixing is getting the levels correct so that the music sounds at it's best... where as mastering is making it so that the dynamic range is full without being exsessive so that it can be played in a non studio/live environment....

For example.... I have noticed that a lot of people just starting out tend to "mix" the bass way too high because they are used to listening to the music on there stereo with their own stereo settings, so when the mix it that way in there studio they are not taking into account that when they playback other music they have already manually cranked the bass... So the end result is that they will love the way it sounds in thier studio headphones/monitors.... make the CD... and all of a sudden when they put it into the car stereo the bass is overpowering, garbled, and generally sounds like a blown speaker already... Mastering can fix this...

Or on the other hand in the case that it was mixed correctly, the musics levels all being balanced and artistically puproseful, mastering still needs to occur so that it is "industry compatable" if you will. A lot of places that do mixing also do mastering these days, but while mixing is more of an "art" mastering is closer to engineering/technical.

Think of the difference like this... There is a cook at a resturant (the musician) who prepares an amazing meal with the help of other cooks who make the side dishes and such (other musicians) and all of it is "mixed" well as far as flavors.... the waiter (mastering guy) then takes the masterpiece to the customers with fine china, garnishments, candlelight, and such....

*pant* I may have over stated things....

[odims_sphere]

And while I'm on the topic of mastering engineers, if the mix engineer did a good enough job, why does it need mastering? this is something that has always bugged me.

You can take the best mix in the entire world and it would never sell if you don't master it first. Among the thousands of reasons for this the very main one is that the cd would not sound "loud" enough. I know what you are saying, "just turn it up", but it's not that simple. Mastering is multiband EQ compression, not just limiting and volume compensating the overall mix. Mastering insures any fade in's/out's are smooth, it eliminates unwanted pops, clicks, hums etc. Mastering makes a bunch of songs into an album by adding the Id tags, ordering the songs correctly, timing between them and crossfading from one to another.

[phee]

You can take the best mix in the entire world and it would never sell if you don't master it first. Among the thousands of reasons for this the very main one is that the cd would not sound "loud" enough. I know what you are saying, "just turn it up", but it's not that simple. Mastering is multiband EQ compression, not just limiting and volume compensating the overall mix. Mastering insures any fade in's/out's are smooth, it eliminates unwanted pops, clicks, hums etc. Mastering makes a bunch of songs into an album by adding the Id tags, ordering the songs correctly, timing between them and crossfading from one to another.

What he said

[bav]

I will observe your right to express your disinterest...

Neck cutta

[odims_sphere]

Television commericals are notorious for over compressing. Listen to your tv when it goes from the show to the commercial. It's on adverage 2 to 3 db louder. I guess they feel that if it's louder you'll want to buy the product more. I know someone who hated this so much they actually put a limiter on their TV so they didn't have to keep turning it up and down.

[BrassFusion]

so the musicians/writers themselves generally aren't involved in the mastering process? that boggles my mind

[sinmantyx]

so the musicians/writers themselves generally aren't involved in the mastering process? that boggles my mind

Most of the time: you don't want them to be.

[odims_sphere]

so the musicians/writers themselves generally aren't involved in the mastering process? that boggles my mind

Not at all, and really it's for the best. generally "Musicians and artists" don't understand the need for the mastering process, they have fragile ego's and feel that their "art" is being destroyed. Mastering is usually handled by the producer and an engineer who has absolutely no ties to the music at all. That way they can listen with fresh ears and objectivly. Again the Mastering process has nothing to do with the "Art" but rather the science of sound and how it relates to the human ear. Humans respond differently to different frequencies. Mastering engineers take advantage of this by studying which frequencies are pleasing and which ones are not, then adjust the sound accordingly.

[phee]

Television commericals are notorious for over compressing. Listen to your tv when it goes from the show to the commercial. It's on adverage 2 to 3 db louder. I guess they feel that if it's louder you'll want to buy the product more. I know someone who hated this so much they actually put a limiter on their TV so they didn't have to keep turning it up and down.

Heh... I think I know him too....

A word about sampling... IMO there are many different ways and levels in which to talk about this...

When people say that they have a problem when samples that they didn't create from actual elements (I believe the example was used as a vocalist for vocal samps, and a drummer for drumloops) it is important to ask where is the line drawn?

I for one love to take most of my samples from old B sci-fi movies, and I am not talking only about lines from movies.... one of the funnest things in the world for me when I am feeling like doing music but I can't think of a damn thing to "write" is to put in the worst shlock of sci-fi hell into my DVD player and sit back with my mini-disk and expand my library. It is almost like mining for raw materials. I love all of the clicks, beeps, monster screams, hums, space ship sounds, rayguns, and background noise from these movies, as well as the occasional uneasy movie line. I then take these sounds and dump them into my sampler and in essance build instruments out of them with effects and treatments.... sometimes the sounds are somewhat recognizable, usually not.

I have on occasion sampled sounds of choirs and classical music as well because of the initial emotional ambience... but it is usually mixed with other elements to sound correct in it's context.

Where I draw the line is essentually when a song is not "sampled" but copied... it is kind of like taking a copy of Michaelangelo's David and pasting your own picture on the face (I can think of several examples already mentioned) Or another place is when something from a movie generally, is ferociously overused and there is barely a song left, a perfect example of this is some tracks by Velvet Acid Christ, where they have simply written some background music and all you hear are samples from some movie (se7en) and you are kind if like "hmmm I am listening to excerpts from a movie with music in the background.....WTF?" If movie/tv lines are to be used... use them well so it exsentuates (sp?) the music, and not becomes the center...

More rant

[phee]

Most of the time: you don't want them to be.

Yup

Not at all, and really it's for the best. generally "Musicians and artists" don't understand the need for the mastering process, they have fragile ego's and feel that their "art" is being destroyed. Mastering is usually handled by the producer and an engineer who has absolutely no ties to the music at all. That way they can listen with fresh ears and objectivly. Again the Mastering process has nothing to do with the "Art" but rather the science of sound and how it relates to the human ear. Humans respond differently to different frequencies. Mastering engineers take advantage of this by studying which frequencies are pleasing and which ones are not, then adjust the sound accordingly.

And yup

[phee]

Not at all, and really it's for the best. generally "Musicians and artists" don't understand the need for the mastering process, they have fragile ego's and feel that their "art" is being destroyed. Mastering is usually handled by the producer and an engineer who has absolutely no ties to the music at all. That way they can listen with fresh ears and objectivly. Again the Mastering process has nothing to do with the "Art" but rather the science of sound and how it relates to the human ear. Humans respond differently to different frequencies. Mastering engineers take advantage of this by studying which frequencies are pleasing and which ones are not, then adjust the sound accordingly.

I can definitly attest to this.... even during mixing I hate to be around... Odims generally has been the one to mix and in most cases master my music.... and it is horrifying... I will stay in the general vicinity during mixing to answer questions and assist... but I really leave it to him.... it is kind of like a molting period for the music.... the process is disgusting, but the out come is OMG.

If I tried to "help" I would ruin my own stuff.

But I usually want to hide under the bed.

[odims_sphere]

But I usually want to hide under the bed.

Especially when I have like a one measure loop running for like twenty minutes while I very slowly narrow the octive width on the upper mid range EQ of each sound being used within that measure.

[phee]

Especially when I have like a one measure loop running for like twenty minutes while I very slowly narrow the octive width on the upper mid range EQ of each sound being used within that measure.

Indeed.... the "artist" (to use the snooty term) should not be present during mixing/mastering

[BrassFusion]

how does that work with non-electronic music?

[odims_sphere]

Exactly the same, especially in the digital age. Once mic'd and recorded it is basically electronic music. Isn't a CD just a sample being played back at 44.1 Khz?

[glc]

Dudes, I know what mastering actually is!! lol!!

It just annoys me that after I've spent hours perfecting something, I give it to someone else to make better. whatever. I know how to make mixes translate well in different environments, I don't need someone to polish my mixes. it just seems so arrogant.

[CixWicked]

Ya know, the way I feel is pretty well summed up by the words of an ancient wise man:

"The track marks your spine, they say

Machines are humans

We're programmed that way

In God we trust

In God we trust"

But maybe that's just me.

CixWicked

[BrassFusion]

uhhhhh like pitch-correction on vocals or instrument lines that are slightly out of tune? that's dishonest.