Thou Shalt Not Take The Name Of The Lord In Vain

[phee]

i'm kinda with troy here, lets break the word down shall we.

ignorant

ignore ant

to ignore ants.

and now i have confused myself

What a threadjack!!!!

[Paper Hearts]

OK.... Why is someone else thinking that you are wrong, and that nothing you say will change thier mind so damn offensive?

Paperhearts doesn't beleive in God and nothing anyone says will change his mind. He has made that pretty clear. Well, nothing short of God having a sit down talk with him.

Steven believes in God and nothing anyone does or says will change that.

OK... How does that make them Ignorant? Infexible, yes. Close minded, yes. Ignorant?

I allow for the possibility of God. So you're either illiterate or you're truly marked with same unfamiliarity and bias here, as you've shown on every other topic. If you know that your religion is right and that I am wrong, that your belief is not a mere possibility, I extend the same questions to you that I've given to Steven. Also, i would like to know how you're not blindly believing in something when you can't explain it.

[phee]

I allow for the possibility of God. So you're either illiterate or you're truly marked with same unfamiliarity and bias here, as you've shown on every other topic. If you know that your religion is right and that I am wrong, that your belief is not a mere possibility, I extend the same questions to you that I've given to Steven. Also, i would like to know how you're not blindly believing in something when you can't explain it.

That could be the difference right there I suppose

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Wow, your pretty damn good at trying to insult me. Second time today you have given me an off handed insult. I am deeply offened. Does that make you happy?

I didn't say you didn't allow a possibility. I said you were not open to anything anyone said.

Perhaps if you could get over your self centered view of the world we could have a decent conversation. You only know one thing about my faith and that is that I believe in God. You have never asked me about my religion. I'm not Christian.

[Paper Hearts]

Wow, your pretty damn good at trying to insult me. Second time today you have given me an off handed insult. I am deeply offened. Does that make you happy?

I didn't say you didn't allow a possibility. I said you were not open to anything anyone said.

Perhaps if you could get over your self centered view of the world we could have a decent conversation. You only know one thing about my faith and that is that I believe in God. You have never asked me about my religion. I'm not Christian.

Typical response, I expected. I did not say you are Christian, where as you did say that I would not believe in god "no matter what". I'm asking you for "what". I'm giving you the benifit of the considerable doubt I will admit to having about you, which you have underestimated, that I'm not willing to express out right, as I already have several times. Well, give me your proof and I'll give you the right to talk to me as if you "know".

[phee]

My this is heated...

And yet still respectful... let's keep it that way!

[Paper Hearts]

My this is heated...

And yet still respectful... let's keep it that way!

I'm laughing. Thank you.

Well it's just that I'm not yet persuaded that anyone is a superhero of knowledge and understanding. If someone has all the secrets, I'm hoping they'll share. Until then, it's a bit disrespectfull and senseless to act otherwise. On another note, as far as Steven's part, I really like him, and he knows that, and he knows that I just disagree with his terminology sometimes. I suppose to the casual reader it may appear otherwise, but Steven and I actually have a history on this website that goes back a bit and we've talked through private messages and that and it's really not so much about my necessarily, not agreeing with his faith, per say. Although I will admit some differences.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I have only ever argued for my RIGHT to beleive any damn thing I want and I have asked you to stop being so damn insulting to everyone that has faith.

I don't talk about my religion that often. To anyone. People tend to get all glassy in the eyes when I start talking about Quantum Mechanics, Quatum String theroy and God.

We should have lunch someday so we can talk. I'm not a writer, so my posts lack a bit of what and who I am. Infact, they lack most of it. You would most likely come away without that attitude you have toward me. I am fully aware that, just like you and everyone else in the world, I am ignorant of God. No one but God can prove God exists. So stop asking mere mortals to do it.

You'll give me the Right to talk as if I know? As you have pointed out yourself, I already have the Right to talk about any damn thing I please. You don't have to read it. I also have the Right to beleive anything thing I want. Deal with it. We do have Freedom of Religion and there is not a damn thing you can do about it.

[Steven]

HOLY MOLY I GO AWAY FOR A FEW DAYS AND EVERYONE IS FLIPPIN OUT!

Head Wreck's expose on true ignorance (the ant theory) has proven revelatory.

paper's demand of what we "know" (allready answered ya Johnny) is still not yeilding any true results for either team and stil feel slike chasing phantoms

Gaf is all kinds of bent

Brass is still sorta in my corner (I had fun with you Friday nite Brass)

and Troy is Troy, brillaintly sensitive and sensitively brilliant.

good to be back.

[phee]

I have only ever argued for my RIGHT to beleive any damn thing I want and I have asked you to stop being so damn insulting to everyone that has faith.

I don't talk about my religion that often. To anyone. People tend to get all glassy in the eyes when I start talking about Quantum Mechanics, Quatum String theroy and God.

We should have lunch someday so we can talk. I'm not a writer, so my posts lack a bit of what and who I am. Infact, they lack most of it. You would most likely come away without that attitude you have toward me. I am fully aware that, just like you and everyone else in the world, I am ignorant of God. No one but God can prove God exists. So stop asking mere mortals to do it.

You'll give me the Right to talk as if I know? As you have pointed out yourself, I already have the Right to talk about any damn thing I please. You don't have to read it. I also have the Right to beleive anything thing I want. Deal with it. We do have Freedom of Religion and there is not a damn thing you can do about it.

*sigh*

I think strange as it sounds... you guys are agreeing with each other in most points....

And I am confindent that know one means to insult anyone else

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I think that too... and I bet that really piss him off.

[Paper Hearts]

I have only ever argued for my RIGHT to beleive any damn thing I want and I have asked you to stop being so damn insulting to everyone that has faith.

I don't talk about my religion that often. To anyone. People tend to get all glassy in the eyes when I start talking about Quantum Mechanics, Quatum String theroy and God.

We should have lunch someday so we can talk. I'm not a writer, so my posts lack a bit of what and who I am. Infact, they lack most of it. You would most likely come away without that attitude you have toward me. I am fully aware that, just like you and everyone else in the world, I am ignorant of God. No one but God can prove God exists. So stop asking mere mortals to do it.

You'll give me the Right to talk as if I know? As you have pointed out yourself, I already have the Right to talk about any damn thing I please. You don't have to read it. I also have the Right to beleive anything thing I want. Deal with it. We do have Freedom of Religion and there is not a damn thing you can do about it.

I have no problems with anyone's faith. In fact, I hope that you're right. And everyone else. I might even find what you believe interesting. But, I mean really, do we have to talk about what we believe in as if it's anything more than that? It doesn't disallow anyone to be able to worship what they believe, it's just a matter of being honest and treating others as equals who are not persuaded by the same notions as ourselves. It would cause a problem anywhere to go about talking as if one knew the secrets of existance, because it's like calling everyone else wrong, who doesn't agree. And if one can't explain how what they believe is an absolute truth, it just discredits them. I mean where is that reasonable way to act?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

It's Faith, not logic. Faith, real Faith, doesn't allow for the possibility of being wrong. It's something you believe to the core of your being.

Should I be offened by anyone that does not believe in Quatum strings? Should I be offended by people (everyone damn near) that does not beleive that we can choose what string to "step on" next?

They have the Right to beleive I am wrong. I have the right to beleive they are wrong. I'm polite enough to not throw that in thier face. Let them have thier Faith.. no matter how rightous they are... What they beleive doesn't really affect you. If it bothers you that they think your wrong... it's because you let it bother you. Not because they are trying to make you feel bad.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

As i said in another thread.. Words only have the power you give them.

[Paper Hearts]

I'm dying.

It's wrong when one is talking to someone of another persuasion to talk as if you know something that they are simply failing to understand. It's like saying they are lesser or like assuming that they haven't explored the matter in full. Anyone is allowed to draw their own conclusions about religion, but it should be realized through one's speaking (if nothing else), that there is more than one conclusion to be drawn. I'm giving everyone that oportunity, I'm saying 'well, you could be right', but I'm not being allowed that same respect; I'm being talked to as if I'm absolutely wrong.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

To someone who has true Faith, you are wrong. Why do they have to limmit thier speach and /or question thier own Faith to make you or anyone else happy? They have the Right to believe anything they want. Getting respect for your beleifs is not a basic Right. I have the right to think God is a Quantum being with little power other than to choose the quatum string he steps on... You have the right to think I'm crazy. What you think of my belief does not change my belief. So some Christian thinks your going to burn in Hell for not worshipping God. Tell them to go find the passage in the Bible that says humans go to hell. When they can't, ask them What the Arabic, Sanscript or Aramaic word for Soul is. When they dont know... inform them that there is none in any of those lauguages and then ask why it's in the King James Bible. Then ask them if they are so damn sure that they are right... why don't they know much about thier most Holy writing.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

More to the point... your asking everyone to question thier Faith for your sake... Why the hell should they? What makes you so special?

[Paper Hearts]

To someone who has true Faith, you are wrong. Why do they have to limmit thier speach and /or question thier own Faith to make you or anyone else happy? They have the Right to believe anything they want. Getting respect for your beleifs is not a basic Right. I have the right to think God is a Quantum being with little power other than to choose the quatum string he steps on... You have the right to think I'm crazy. What you think of my belief does not change my belief. So some Christian thinks your going to burn in Hell for not worshipping God. Tell them to go find the passage in the Bible that says humans go to hell. When they can't, ask them What the Arabic, Sanscript or Aramaic word for Soul is. When they dont know... inform them that there is none in any of those lauguages and then ask why it's in the King James Bible. Then ask them if they are so damn sure that they are right... why don't they know much about thier most Holy writing.

fine, I might be wrong. I allow for that possibility too. Which is why I ask people prove that to me. Isn't that fair enough?

[BrassFusion]

I'm not Christian.

What?

I recall you getting super pissed a while back when I didn't automatically assume you WERE christian. and if there's a topic to discuss what faith you DO consider yourself... this is the one.

[Steven]

I have no problems with anyone's faith. In fact, I hope that you're right. And everyone else. I might even find what you believe interesting. But, I mean really, do we have to talk about what we believe in as if it's anything more than that? It doesn't disallow anyone to be able to worship what they believe, it's just a matter of being honest and treating others as equals who are not persuaded by the same notions as ourselves. It would cause a problem anywhere to go about talking as if one knew the secrets of existance, because it's like calling everyone else wrong, who doesn't agree. And if one can't explain how what they believe is an absolute truth, it just discredits them. I mean where is that reasonable way to act?

ok, I have to call you on this one Paper, because I still have yet to see a clear example of this alleged inquality of address, where soemhow you are being communicated to - or singled out as being "less than." I honestly jsut dont see that in the entire thread. In fact I see a tendency on your part to be leaning in the direction of blantant disrespect by way of your particular writing style, which seems to incorprate an awful lot of sarcasm. You make mention of "like" calling everyone else wrong who does not agree....but you could be wrong here. IN addition you make the statement that unless someone can "explain" the rationale for their beleif, then they are discredited.

by whom? And why should that person or persons doing the discrediting carry any weight to the person who does not view things with the same ideals and points of view as yourselves? I ask this because it seems as if you are simply waiting to dismiss whatever "explanation" they may be wanting to suggest, and again its done with that sarcastic mode, followed up by a demand to be treated as equals. I see a conflict in that approach. I just dont think you offer the same degree of respect and creedence that you demand. And to me, that discredits YOU - and that actually bugs me, because I actually think yoru pretty cool and obviously very bright. But I'm having a hard time considering your points of view, simply because of your delivery. It makes me wonder about the emotional portion of your agenda.

[Steven]

It's Faith, not logic. Faith, real Faith, doesn't allow for the possibility of being wrong. It's something you believe to the core of your being.

Should I be offened by anyone that does not believe in Quatum strings? Should I be offended by people (everyone damn near) that does not beleive that we can choose what string to "step on" next?

They have the Right to beleive I am wrong. I have the right to beleive they are wrong. I'm polite enough to not throw that in thier face. Let them have thier Faith.. no matter how rightous they are... What they beleive doesn't really affect you. If it bothers you that they think your wrong... it's because you let it bother you. Not because they are trying to make you feel bad.

interesting.

I would never make that statment, that real faith does not allow for the possibility of being wrong.

ANd I'm a Christian, of real faith.

But, I'VE been wrong about things before.

and YOU've been wrong.

what I fail to understand....is all of this business one either side, of being right or wrong.

Granted I am not one who waivers. I am not one who doubts. But I am also not one who needs to be RIGHT, and I am not one who wastes any time whatosever considering that others are WRONG. that to me, is self worship. Perhaps Gaf you need to better define what exaclty your faith is in, because I'm a bit confiused as to what specifically were talking about now.

[Paper Hearts]

ok, I have to call you on this one Paper, because I still have yet to see a clear example of this alleged inquality of address, where soemhow you are being communicated to - or singled out as being "less than." I honestly jsut dont see that in the entire thread. In fact I see a tendency on your part to be leaning in the direction of blantant disrespect by way of your particular writing style, which seems to incorprate an awful lot of sarcasm. You make mention of "like" calling everyone else wrong who does not agree....but you could be wrong here. IN addition you make the statement that unless someone can "explain" the rationale for their beleif, then they are discredited.

by whom? And why should that person or persons doing the discrediting carry any weight to the person who does not view things with the same ideals and points of view as yourselves? I ask this because it seems as if you are simply waiting to dismiss whatever "explanation" they may be wanting to suggest, and again its done with that sarcastic mode, followed up by a demand to be treated as equals. I see a conflict in that approach. I just dont think you offer the same degree of respect and creedence that you demand. And to me, that discredits YOU - and that actually bugs me, because I actually think yoru pretty cool and obviously very bright. But I'm having a hard time considering your points of view, simply because of your delivery. It makes me wonder about the emotional portion of your agenda.

I'm definitely pessimistic towards the attitude that anyone really knows the secrets about this thing, called existence. But my pessimism comes from an intense curiosity for the subject, in a way. When someone comes at you with the argument that you are wrong about something, isn't it the logical reaction to ask them to explain themselves? And if they can't make an explanation, wouldn't you perhaps become a bit sardonic with them? Under that circumstance, it seems to me that sarcasm isn't half as great an offense.

I do everyone this much justice and regard, I state that what they believe in is interesting and also a possibility. When someone challenges my initial gentleness to them by replying in whatever way, that what they believe in is not mere possibility but an absolute truth, it's really abusing that dignity I've assigned to them. I've communicated to them that I feel that they are an equal and they've turned on me and said I am not an equal, I know better than you, in a meaning. Why wouldn't I demand that they demonstrate what excuse they have for making such a remark? Sometimes people forget that an agnostic is not always someone who hasn't chased an issue far enough, but many times someone who's investigated the issue more, to the extent that they don't feel comfortable taking a side. And agnostics should command the same respect as a Christian or anyone else. We are not an odd collection of hippies who seek to tear down religion, and being approached as that is insulting.

Sometimes people are simply misusing words or expressions and it's not quite as loathsome a problem (probably), but doing that can portray an indignity to certain people, it should be realized. And after all, are our languages really so vague that we have no other choice than to use words that do not apply correctly to a situation? There's absolutely no poetry in talking in such a way and it can be somewhat disrespectful. -If in the course of pressing someone to plead their case for stating that they know God is real, I find out that they were simply abusing a term, is it really my mistake? If, on the other hand, in the course of pressing someone to plead their case for stating that they know God is real, I find out that someone is erroneous (as admittedly, I always expect to discover in this scenario) then I am completely absolved, am I not?

[Steven]

this is not an argument that I see any benefit from continuing to pursue with you Bro - you've given alot of thought to your position and seem to feel that your actions are appropriate. In that case I can only leave you to your convictions.

All of us from time to time should take a moment to reflect back and see if our methods or individual passions are truly yeilidng any worthwhile results.

[phee]

If I were to sum up what I believe to be PH's argument here (and correct me if I am wrong):

He has an issue with a belief system whos followers believe that they are right and that everything else is wrong (I am overgeneralizing). And then when asked, cannot provide any type of logical reasoning as to why they believe you are wrong, and take offense to you even asking the question.

Did I get the gist of it?

And from the other perspective...

Why would a person with a strong belief that happens to believe you are wrong be a problem, as long as they keep there beliefs away from you. People can believe that you are wrong all they want and have the right to, as long as they don't hurt anyone...

And is that the gist of the other argument?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

BF, you are going to have to show me the conversation in question. I have always stated that I am not a Christian but I do believe that God exists. I have also stated that I will sometimes refer to myself as a Christian in a conversation because it's easyer than trying to explain my whole belief system to someone or some group that can't or won't accept and/or understand it.

What Faith am I? I don't know what it would be called, but thank you for asking. I went to a Missionary Church until I was 12. 4 times a week. Sunday morning service, Sunday evening service and twice a week after school for 2 hours for Bible school. My parents did not go with me. My Father was a Budhist and my Mother was Wiccan. They let me find my own Faith. Then the fuckers got divorced and my world fell apart. I lost my Faith in God and most of humanity. 8 years later God found me. I experianced a miracle. It changed my views on God completly. By then I had read a large number of books on the nature of the universe. Astro physics, quantum physics and books on religion from all over the world. I had to find some way to make everything I had read fit with what I had recently learned about God. it took a few years to reconsile things... but I have a good view of the Universe and I like it.