Are we so small in the universe?

[The_Dark]

You are going to have to do Homework. I need the exact verse that says we go to hell.

[Gauge]

yes.

we are.

so small.

its just us out there......

I actually do beleive this.

better make it count while you can.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i bet ants think the same thing, but thats probably just because in there little universe they are not able to realize what is around them. its all about perspective really, and for all we know whats out there could just be to big or to far away. just my opinion...

:whistling

[BrassFusion]

People choose to beleive or not everyday. Millions of them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay.

SMART people can't choose to believe. They just do, or they just don't. You asking anyone else to choose to believe would be like someone asking you to choose not to believe.

[The_Dark]

It's ok for you to choose to believe that.

It's you choice to make.

So, are you saying that your not smart because you made a choice?

[The_Dark]

BTW... It's OK, not Okay. OK is someone's Initials that we as a sociaty have chosen to use as a way of saying something is good to go.

[Steven]

You are going to have to do Homework. I need the exact verse that says we go to hell.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never told you the bible said were going to hell.........I suppose I can research this topic too but its not my argument....

I am however - interested in yoru reference from Revelations, and I'm not even oppsing you per se, I just want to know where your getting your info on this particular topic.....I was thinking that perhaps (and I'm niot sure) your referring to the 144000 annointed that co-rule in heaven from the 12 tribes of Israel????

[Steven]

i bet ants think the same thing, but thats probably just because in there little universe they are not able to realize what is around them. its all about perspective really, and for all we know whats out there could just be to big or to far away. just my opinion...

:whistling

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have no evidence of this beleif, just a hunch, but I'm of the impression t hat all creation is aware of God's presence. I dotn know why IK feel that way....I just do.

even the ants.

[phee]

What we've typically been discussing is the Christian view of it.  I was basically arguing a point against literal Christianity which does, in fact, state that God is perfect.

If you look at many of the other religions, such as Norse Paganism, they have a very different set of beliefs about their gods (a lot of the times, Odin is just a plain jerk).

I don't know; I don't really believe in anything right now and I don't foresee any personal epiphanies coming anytime soon.

The reason I find this comforting is because it aknowledges our own imperfections as part of the whole... as opposed to doing something that may or may not be wrong to a being that may or may not exist, and may or may not be perfect....

[The_Dark]

Yes. You are correct Steven. As far as i have ever been able to find.. they are the only ones that get a ticket to Heaven. These rest of us just get to live for eternity... here in the Kingdom of God.

[Gauge]

I have no evidence of this beleif, just a hunch, but I'm of the impression t hat all creation is aware of God's presence.  I dotn know why IK feel that way....I just do.

even the ants.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

but who is to say that maybe when the ants are aware of god its not actually (your definition) of god, but rather us. To follow that up, who is to say that the worlds opinion/definitions of god, or gods as the case may be, may not actually be this one true all mighty thing but rather a seperate race of humans (i use the word human loosely as for all we know it may be human, animal, alien, whatever, human is just easiest to use in this case) that happens to be larger than us. maybe our world as we know it in the universe is just a childs toy collection of bouncy balls thrown into an intricately carved box, and in his world we are the ants. on a different note, why is it impossible to believe that there is not life outside of this, maybe on pluto there is a race that is much like ours only adapted for life there, and no one actually has the ability to go there (or come here) to find out the truth. maybe were all just neighbors. it could go on and on and on, but the point im trying to make is that there is a very high possibility that we are not the only ones.

*disclaimer*

this is all just my opinion and is not meant to offend.

[The_Dark]

Probability says we are not the only ones.... it also says we wont ever meet anyone else.

[Steven]

Okay.

SMART people can't choose to believe. They just do, or they just don't. You asking anyone else to choose to believe would be like someone asking you to choose not to believe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not really clear onwhat your saying here Brass.

I do think however -that a certain degree of faith, can come by choice.

For example (I smell a thread jack coming) I choose to disbeleive everything I was taught in NA about my addctions, my physiological predisposition via family history, and the fact that I am in "recovery" from a lifelong disease. I'd much rather just beleive that once I was a drug addict for half my life, and lived that lifetstyle, and reaped what I'd sewn, and it fucking sucked, and I sucked, and there ya go.

And now I beleive that that is a ridiculous way for me to live my life, I had no fricken disease, instead I had no clue, now I know better, I dont need to adhere to any 12 steps, and I hate being saddled with titles, and I have better things to do and calling msyelf an addict in recovery when I have not used in many years and therefore doing so is akin to stupidity on my part and it therefore clashes with my present lifestyle. I also beleive I am a new man, I must be, because i dont do things that the old man used to do.

I had one life I knew quite well.

I had another life I didint know shit about.

I chose life B.

That was a long time ago. And I no longer beleive that Life A applies to me in any way, shape, or form and I do not beleive in its assignment to me or that it is a credible threat to my future. And I have full faith in life B.

choices, faith, threadjack.

[phee]

but who is to say that maybe when the ants are aware of god its not actually (your definition) of god, but rather us. To follow that up, who is to say that the worlds opinion/definitions of god, or gods as the case may be, may not actually be this one true all mighty thing but rather a seperate race of humans (i use the word human loosely as for all we know it may be human, animal, alien, whatever, human is just easiest to use in this case) that happens to be larger than us. maybe our world as we know it in the universe is just a childs toy collection of bouncy balls thrown into an intricately carved box, and in his world we are the ants. on a different note, why is it impossible to believe that there is not life outside of this, maybe on pluto there is a race that is much like ours only adapted for life there, and no one actually has the ability to go there (or come here) to find out the truth. maybe were all just neighbors.  it could go on and on and on, but the point im trying to make is that there is a very high possibility that we are not the only ones.

*disclaimer*

this is all just my opinion and is not meant to offend.

Exactly... my problem with Western Monotheistic belief is that it is in fact so egocentric... (We are the choosen ones, we are right and they are wrong, I just know because I know, and God has talked to me etc....)

How many peoples on this world alone claim to be right, and special... let alone the universe?

[Gauge]

Exactly... my problem with Western Monotheistic belief is that it is in fact so egocentric... (We are the choosen ones, we are right and they are wrong, I just know because I know, and God has talked to me etc....)

How many peoples on this world alone claim to be right, and special... let alone the universe?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yup, its all the walrus and the carpenter. blind faith just because

[phee]

yup, its all the walrus and the carpenter. blind faith just because

I wish people could just admit that they don't know and move on... And I am not splitting hairs with belief here... I KNOW that I don't have enough information to make a judgement one way or another.... and I BELIEVE it to...

[Steven]

Yes. You are correct Steven. As far as i have ever been able to find.. they are the only ones that get a ticket to Heaven. These rest of us just get to live for eternity... here in the Kingdom of God.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and here's my answer: I dont know.

I've heard credible teaching on this subject, and have not been drawn to any conclusions on my own. JW's teach that onlyt he 144000 go to heaven. But the bible also makes referances to the "rapturing" of all beleivers to christ in the sky. And there is also referances in Revelations abotu a new heaven and a new earth and the Lion lying with the Lamb and eating straw and there are Post tribulation argumetns and Pre tribulation argumetns etc. etc. etc.....there is some vaguness there, some gray areas on the subject.

......and I dont know.

My gut tells me i will be left behind and will ahve to endure the Great Tribulation. No rapture pre trib for The Steve-O. Why? cant put it into words, cant prove it. Just a feeling. but that feeling does not include all beleivers....I just think that at least for me, I'll have to tough some thigns out, maybe lose my life, who knows?

to me these thigns are not critical to my faith and position in the kingdom of God. They are simply elements to my present and future experience. I dont have to know I'll be allright to accept. Maybe I'm that way because I was a soldier. Maybe I'm that way because I've been prepared to be that way my whole life, and maybe I'm just wrong. I do feel however, that what I do know, is all I need to know. Its beenmore than enough to sustain and mold me for many years....

[Steven]

but who is to say that maybe when the ants are aware of god its not actually (your definition) of god, but rather us. To follow that up, who is to say that the worlds opinion/definitions of god, or gods as the case may be, may not actually be this one true all mighty thing but rather a seperate race of humans (i use the word human loosely as for all we know it may be human, animal, alien, whatever, human is just easiest to use in this case) that happens to be larger than us. maybe our world as we know it in the universe is just a childs toy collection of bouncy balls thrown into an intricately carved box, and in his world we are the ants. on a different note, why is it impossible to believe that there is not life outside of this, maybe on pluto there is a race that is much like ours only adapted for life there, and no one actually has the ability to go there (or come here) to find out the truth. maybe were all just neighbors.  it could go on and on and on, but the point im trying to make is that there is a very high possibility that we are not the only ones.

*disclaimer*

this is all just my opinion and is not meant to offend.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not offended at all and think you make a good point.

I also just beleive what I do. A great deal of it comes from intuition.

[Steven]

Exactly... my problem with Western Monotheistic belief is that it is in fact so egocentric... (We are the choosen ones, we are right and they are wrong, I just know because I know, and God has talked to me etc....)

How many peoples on this world alone claim to be right, and special... let alone the universe?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

as a friendly counter my friend:

what then do you do with those of us who "beleive", yet dont feel special, dont feel enlightened as a form of elevation, dont care where the roots of our faith came from, dont care that you love pants, dont need to dominate, and dont need to be right?

we just beleive and it moves us?

cause some of us, granted we are few....aint really A Holes or fit so neatly in the general category that your used to.....

[Gauge]

I'm not offended at all and think you make a good point.

I also just beleive what I do.  A great deal of it comes from intuition.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

my question to you then would be why do you believe? im just curious and i realize you say a great deal comes from intuition but other than that what do you base your beliefs on?

[phee]

I'm not offended at all and think you make a good point.

I also just beleive what I do.  A great deal of it comes from intuition.

That's the problem with intuition though... there are no checks and balances that fact and such provide.... my intuition could be telling me to choke babies because I believe that god wants me to... maybe he tells me they are demons...

If you ask yourself, why did mankind create religion? That may shed some light on this need.... to explain what cannot be...

[Steven]

yup, its all the walrus and the carpenter. blind faith just because

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

not all faith is blind, Gauge.

some of it is actually rooted and constantly re-evaluated.

it just doesent work for everyone as a whole, thats all. But I do test the life that I'm living.

[Gauge]

That's the problem with intuition though... there are no checks and balances that fact and such provide.... my intuition could be telling me to choke babies because I believe that god wants me to... maybe he tells me they are demons...

If you ask yourself, why did mankind create religion? That may shed some light on this need.... to explain what cannot be...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i think mankind created religion as a way to bond with others, granted it backfired but still. you can have nothing in common with the person sitting next to you untill you see that theyre wearing a cross/pentagram/jewish star and you immediately have a connection, you feel that you have someone who understands you. theres also the need like you said for some to explain what they dont understand

[Gauge]

not all faith is blind, Gauge.

some of it is actually rooted and constantly re-evaluated.

it just doesent work for everyone as a whole, thats all.  But I do test the life that I'm living.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

by definition faith is belief that does not rest on logic, proof, or evidence. if you have no logic proof or evidence how is it anything but blind?

[phee]

by definition faith is belief that does not rest on logic, proof, or evidence. if you have no logic proof or evidence how is it anything but blind?

Indeed....

[torn asunder]

i'm still trying to figure out why people have this inane idea that they *must* be separate from deity. separation is the single biggest inhibitor to peace on earth - i mean, once people truly and whole-heartedly realize we're all one in "the source" (god, if you will) how could we fight/hate/kill each other? when i look at people i try to imagine who it is that looks out from behind their eyes, and i realize it's the same thing that sees from behind mine, we just are looking through different "filters". that essence, that "spirit" that infuses us with life knows no separation - it is the thing from which all life springs, and as such, how could it hate itself? life is created out of love, and flows from it, which i guess is why i don't understand most people - they hate, and they separate, and they lead secluded "i'm-safe-in-my-little-world" lives without ever making the connection. it makes me sad... =(