Automotive Technologies and Alternate Power

[Msterbeau]

I'm not sure if anyone read the article or not, I'll try to find it again. I read an article recently on CNN about the EPA and Hybrid cars. According to it the EPA is about to redo the standards they use to figure out the Est. MPG rating they give cars. It has not been updated since the 1980s. The standards as they are now are for perfect driving conditions with perfect weather. They dont take things like cold weather into account. Under the new proposed rules, hybrid cars don't look so appealing. Some of them go from 60MPG to 30MPG. Most will still have the best milage ratings, but they will be a lot lower than they are now.

Heres a link to the proposed standards:

http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/420f06009.htm

Yeah... The current standards aren't too bad if you're comparing vehicle to vehicle, but they don't reflect real world situations so the numbers overall can be quite misleading.

I'm willing to bet that part of the hybrid's poor real-world performance compared the EPA numbers is because people don't drive them to take advantage of features like regenerative braking. In city driving those things make a significant difference.

An interesting comparison is between Toyota's Prius and Honda's Civic Hybrid. The Honda is a much more conservative engineering strategy yet it comes fairly close to the Prius in real-world numbers. How come? I don't know the answer, but it does serve to illustrate that a simpler, well-engineered solution can be just as effective as something more radical.

[gorfgirl]

Cold weather kills the milage on Hybrids, no matter the brand. Thats the misleading thing about the EPA standards, they dont take cold weather into account.

[phee]

Batteries on Hybrids seem to die very quickly... my X had one and if she left a dome light on and a HALF AN HOUR later it was kaput

[Msterbeau]

Cold weather kills the milage on Hybrids, no matter the brand. Thats the misleading thing about the EPA standards, they dont take cold weather into account.

Nor using A/C. Nor that people cruise at 70-80MPH on the highway. Yeah... Their a little out of touch.

[Guest Game of Chance]

I got your point about the war and I completely agree.  However, I'd like this thread to not devolve into politics.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unless you live on another planet that I'm unaware of, politics are the biggest factor in this problem. Technology is only as good as the funding it receives.

[BrassFusion]

Unless you live on another planet that I'm unaware of, politics are the biggest factor in this problem.  Technology is only as good as the funding it receives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

he meant stale politics.

[Msterbeau]

Unless you live on another planet that I'm unaware of, politics are the biggest factor in this problem.  Technology is only as good as the funding it receives.

I AM on another planet according to some people... :whistling

It may be a significant part of the problem, but I think we outta keep the thread focused on the technical side. If you wanna start another thread to address the political side... I'll happily join in on that.

[Guest Game of Chance]

I don't think its necessary, considering the last phrase of the thread is "the future".

Politics play a major role in any type of project related to infrastructure. Its all theoretical if you neglect the big picture.

[pharoh]

In spirit of the thread, watch this video

http://www.killsometime.com/Video/video.asp?ID=576

[pharoh]

That video should change peoples mind by the way, the military is already looking into it.

[Rayne]

Hybrids aren't the answer -- at least not yet.

Most are cost efficient and better for the enviornment on a daily basis ... but something breaks, you have limited choices to get it fixed, things on them seem to break much easier (like the battery dies in NO TIME) and are much more expensive to fix than your normal gasoline engine.

(editted for grammar errors while I rushed to post before my battery died)

[sinmantyx]

I've seen systems that use a small solar array connected to an electric fan to pump the heat out of the car.. I don't think it was produced though.

I think We've gone way off topic at this point...  :erm

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it's called the "autocool"...I saw an informercial for something like that.

[sinmantyx]

440 mil is a drop in the bucket, not just compared to military spending, but compared to PRIVATE spending on the issue. (When I worked for DOE, W came to speak to us and he was NOT well received. Note: "worked for DOE" sounds cooler than "was a research assistant in grad school for a professor who did research at a DOE funded lab")

[OH...and just to represent for my homies at NASA...fuel cell technology is used in the space program and therefor has direct possitive dividends concerning this issue.]

I think the conspiracy theories about big bussiness wanting to keep the internal combustion engine alive because of oil interests or what-not; don't make sense on the face of it. Big companies want to stay in bussiness, they want the economy to prosper, and the people in charge have kids that breath the air and drink the water too.

The consumer is the key here. We need to change our habits. We can't just wait for the technology to become perfect to jump on it. There are electric cars that work just fine for the MASS MAJORITY of driving NOW. We just need to get into the habit of having an electric car for most of our driving, and renting an internal combustion car, taking a train, or taking a bus, or flying, when we want to take a long trip. The Plug-in Hybrid idea is the best idea so far, but if companies can't get that sorted out and reliable within the next 20 years, maybe, just maybe we should buck up a little bit.

That's really all that needs to happen for the VAST MAJORITY of these issue to be completely taken care of, in the near future instead of the far future.

Not only that but (I just realized just the other day) since charging would generally happen at night when demand was low. Charging the cars would not put nearly as much strain on the power grid as one might think. Making the whole concept even more efficent.

[AstralCrux]

Don't know about that not straining the power grid part. We've had power outages from just the heat wave and everyone blasting their a/c. I had quite a few people come into the hotel for just that reason. We'd be knocking out more areas, powerwise. However, rare, that the extreme heat/cold days happen to be, the last thing you want to be is stuck.

[sinmantyx]

Don't know about that not straining the power grid part.  We've had power outages from just the heat wave and everyone blasting their a/c.  I had quite a few people come into the hotel for just that reason.  We'd be knocking out more areas, powerwise.  However, rare, that the extreme heat/cold days happen to be, the last thing you want to be is stuck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's the beauty of it. The reason power outages happen is because the DEMAND for power at a particular time is too high for the grid to deliver. It generally has little to do with the TOTAL amount of electrical energy available through-out the entire day. If you charge your car in at night there would be little problem on that front.

The only issue would arrive if you charge your car up the moment you get home, turn on all your lights and the A/C and start cooking yourself dinner. THEN...we'd have a problem.

[sinmantyx]

The only issue would arrive if you charge your car up the moment you get home, turn on all your lights and the A/C and start cooking yourself dinner.  THEN...we'd have a problem.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey look what I found. I guess I'm not the only one who thought of this. So, it looks like if you really wanted to, you could use your car for emergency power for your home during a power outage or to avoid the outage in the first place....SPIFFY!

[gorfgirl]

Rayne.. Hybrids are cost efficient as long as you never do the math. You pay more for them at the dealership. This should be offset by the money save at the pump, but they dont get the milage that the EPA sticker says it does. Long term savings ends up being far less than you paid extra at the dealership.

[Guest Game of Chance]

Rayne.. Hybrids are cost efficient as long as you never do the math. You pay more for them at the dealership. This should be offset by the money save at the pump, but they dont get the milage that the EPA sticker says it does. Long term savings ends up being far less than you paid extra at the dealership.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is completely true. The auto companies are taking advantage of environmentalists/tree-huggers.

[sinmantyx]

Rayne.. Hybrids are cost efficient as long as you never do the math. You pay more for them at the dealership. This should be offset by the money save at the pump, but they dont get the milage that the EPA sticker says it does. Long term savings ends up being far less than you paid extra at the dealership.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This doesn't make sense. Just because they don't get the mileage in realisitc conditions that it may say on the sticker; doesn't mean they don't get better mileage in those realistic conditions than traditional internal combustion engines.

So, for example if an internal combustion engine gets 23 miles per gallon under ideal conditions and a hybrid vehicle gets 40 miles per gallon under ideal conditions...

IN DOES NOT FOLLOW, that if the hybrid got 22 miles per gallon under a certain set of realistic conditions that you aren't saving money! In order to make any conclusions, you would need to know what the mileage of an internal combustion engine is, considering those specific conditions, to make a comparison.

Do you understand the break-down of logic in your argument? Now, if you compare apples and apples; there very well may be certain conditions where a particular hybrid vehicle does not out-perform an internal combustion engine. In that case, it would depend on how prevailant those conditions are in your individual driving.

So, basically, if you are going to make these statements...YOU might do well to actually DO THE MATH yourself before jumping to an overgeneralized and unsupported conclusion.

[Msterbeau]

This doesn't make sense.  Just because they don't get the mileage in realisitc conditions that it may say on the sticker; doesn't mean they don't get better mileage in those realistic conditions than traditional internal combustion engines.

So, for example if an internal combustion engine gets 23 miles per gallon under ideal conditions and a hybrid vehicle gets 40 miles per gallon under ideal conditions...

IN DOES NOT FOLLOW, that if the hybrid got 22 miles per gallon under a certain set of realistic conditions that you aren't saving money!  In order to make any conclusions, you would need to know what the mileage of an internal combustion engine is, considering those specific conditions, to make a comparison.

Do you understand the break-down of logic in your argument?  Now, if you compare apples and apples; there very well may be certain conditions where a particular hybrid vehicle does not out-perform an internal combustion engine.  In that case, it would depend on how prevailant those conditions are in your individual driving.

So, basically, if you are going to make these statements...YOU might do well to actually DO THE MATH yourself before jumping to an overgeneralized and  unsupported conclusion.

Exactly. Another point to consider: Whether it saves you money over the long term is not the whole point of buying a fuel efficient vehicle. We have a limited and dwindling supply of fossil fuels. Until there's a viable, mass-market alternative, we need to start conserving it now. There's quite likely a cost associated with that, though not necessarily monetary.

Steve.. I don't think they're being taken advantage of. I think the manufacturers are finally giving them what they've been asking for. Hybrids and ethonol powered vehicles aren't pefect but they're decent first steps.

[sinmantyx]

Steve..  I don't think they're being taken advantage of.  I think the manufacturers are finally giving them what they've been asking for.  Hybrids and ethonol powered vehicles aren't pefect but they're decent first steps.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...and I'm pretty happy about that. However, I still want my plug-in electric + hydrogen vehicle!

One question about hydrogen cars that maybe you can answer....would it be reasonable to sell hydrogen cylinders (similiar to how propane is sold) that have a standard valve system that clicks into place? In that way, the actual act of filling the "tank" would be done by professionals and not by the consumer; and the system would not require some sort of entry point on the side of the body of the car.

When you go to a "gas station" you could simply change-out your hydrogen cylinders, instead of filling up a tank of hydrogen (under pressure assumably).

[if nobody has every thought of this --- doubtful but possible --- I totally thought of it first.]

[Msterbeau]

...and I'm pretty happy about that.  However, I still want my plug-in electric + hydrogen vehicle! 

One question about hydrogen cars that maybe you can answer....would it be reasonable to sell hydrogen cylinders (similiar to how propane is sold) that have a standard valve system that clicks into place?  In that way, the actual act of filling the "tank" would be done by professionals and not by the consumer; and the system would not require some sort of entry point on the side of the body of the car.

When you go to a "gas station" you could simply change-out your hydrogen cylinders, instead of filling up a tank of hydrogen (under pressure assumably).

[if nobody has every thought of this --- doubtful but possible --- I totally thought of it first.]

The company I currently work for... or rather the parent company, actually makes hydrogen tanks. I got a tour of the prototyping facility. Problem #1 for quick change idea: They're heavy as hell in order to withstand the pressure. I think once you get into the physical problems of how you get on out of the car and a fully loaded one back in... it ends up not making sense. This is assuming that the current self serve gas model works well for most people. Who knows.. maybe people won't mind sitting in their car for five minutes while it's lifted in the air and a tank installed. Which gets to the next potential problem: What's easier to deal with at the service station. One big truck full of the stuff (Or pipelines?) to bring in the fuel or trucks delivering a pile of cylinders daily and taking away the empties? You'ld need a bunch of new gizmos to do the this. These are the infrastructure problems that have to be sorted out before you can even think of having a mainstream production car.

BTW... If you want to snoop around our company's web site... go to town:

http://www.qtww.com/index.php

[sinmantyx]

The company I currently work for... or rather the parent company, actually makes hydrogen tanks.  I got a tour of the prototyping facility.  Problem #1 for quick change idea:  They're heavy as hell in order to withstand the pressure.  I think once you get into the physical problems of how you get on out of the car and a fully loaded one back in...  it ends up not making sense.  This is assuming that the current self serve gas model works well for most people.  Who knows..  maybe people won't mind sitting in their car for five minutes while it's lifted in the air and a tank installed.  Which gets to the next potential problem:  What's easier to deal with at the service station.  One big truck full of the stuff (Or pipelines?) to bring in the fuel or trucks delivering a pile of cylinders daily and taking away the empties?  You'ld need a bunch of new gizmos to do the this.  These are the infrastructure problems that have to be sorted out before you can even think of having a mainstream production car.

BTW...  If you want to snoop around our company's web site...  go to town:

http://www.qtww.com/index.php

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, I used to lug around the gas cyllinders at Argonne (that's what research assistants get to do). I was envisioning the use of two or three smaller tanks, but even then I can see that they might be a bit too much for the average person and require (at the very least) non self-serve installation (which may not be the end of the world, but would add to costs to the consumer obviously).

The one large advantage I see is that it would be easier for gas stations to just have a few on-hand without the need for extensive infrastructure changes. As the volume of hydrogen tank sales increase, they can simply increase the number of tanks they carry progressively without a large initial one-time expense.

[n0Mad]

Yeah, I used to lug around the gas cyllinders at Argonne

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My first D&D character ever was named Argonne. I learned how to play at a military summer camp and all the dorms were named after battles in World War I. So, I named my character after the dorm named after the battle of Argonne.

[pharoh]

My first D&D character ever was named Argonne.  I learned how to play at a military summer camp and all the dorms were named after battles in World War I.  So, I named my character after the dorm named after the battle of Argonne.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You fucking geek

Still love ya tho