Draw Muhammad Day

[freydis]

I thought being tasteless and rude and saying what you want was the whole point of free speech... Sure, its tasteless and rude, but its their right to say it... If people don't like it, don't watch listen or look... That's also their right... I honestly don't get what the big deal is...

Edited to remove a bit of unintended condescension.

No one said anyone should be censored for anything.

Anyone who wants to participate in looking like an ignorant bigot has every right to.

However, since this is a *discussion board*, and someone brought it up for *discussion*, I--and several others--are noting our opinions.

Honestly? Had no one brought it up, I wouldn't have even known about it.

[Saint Germain]

The satirical magazine Titanic here go one step futher

they organize a Muhammad Look-a-like Contest.

The moral to this story is don't mess with a Caricaturist.

Edited May 25, 2010 by Saint Germain

[Helicopter Girl]

No one said anyone should be censored for anything.

Anyone who wants to participate in looking like an ignorant bigot has every right to.

However, since this is a *discussion board*, and someone brought it up for *discussion*, I--and several others--are noting our opinions.

Honestly? Had no one brought it up, I wouldn't have even known about it.

you are giving cover to homophobia, sexism and hate by saying it shouldn't be mocked because it's a religion. The amount of sexism and misogyny in the middle east is widely known and most of it justified by Islam. I've even seen women in Dearborn in the back seats of cars because the religion forbids them to sit in the front. Only a few muslims may be terrorists (although thousands rioted over the Danish cartoons) but a large portion of Muslims believe women are second class citizens. have you seen the Theo Van Gogh Documentary?

It's not just Islam though. Christianity and other religions should be mocked for the harm they have done to society as well. But you think people who want to offend homophobes and sexists are childish and immature?

Sorry but throughout American history satire has been interwined with politcal and social movements. What South Park does is often brilliant especially when they mock Islam and Jesus. It's not like they are mocking them for no reason, they have social messages in their satire. But some people just gasp because it's a religion.

Phee said it best, if people acted like XXX because of reason YYY then it would be perfectly acceptable to mock them. If they just replace YYY with (insert religion here) then everyone gets offended. Why? Isn't hateful behavior contemptable regardless of it's cause?

[freydis]

you are giving cover to homophobia, sexism and hate by saying it shouldn't be mocked because it's a religion. The amount of sexism and misogyny in the middle east is widely known and most of it justified by Islam. I've even seen women in Dearborn in the back seats of cars because the religion forbids them to sit in the front. Only a few muslims may be terrorists (although thousands rioted over the Danish cartoons) but a large portion of Muslims believe women are second class citizens. have you seen the Theo Van Gogh Documentary?

It's not just Islam though. Christianity and other religions should be mocked for the harm they have done to society as well. But you think people who want to offend homophobes and sexists are childish and immature?

Sorry but throughout American history satire has been interwined with politcal and social movements. What South Park does is often brilliant especially when they mock Islam and Jesus. It's not like they are mocking them for no reason, they have social messages in their satire. But some people just gasp because it's a religion.

Phee said it best, if people acted like XXX because of reason YYY then it would be perfectly acceptable to mock them. If they just replace YYY with (insert religion here) then everyone gets offended. Why? Isn't hateful behavior contemptable regardless of it's cause?

There's nothing wrong with SATIRE.

The original caricature was SATIRE.

If you read the original post that began the conversation, this isn't about satire. Not really.

This is about people throwing a fit over South Park backing down on making fun of Islam. Their chosen method is to take one thing that by itself is barely notable (South Park pokes fun at another culture/subculture/whatever. Who cares. Happens weekly.), and blow it up times a thousand.

My problem with it is that the original thought gets lost, and in the even more public forum becomes instead a gross insult to an entire culture. It's ignorant, selfish and stupid. It loses the message completely, and instead just becomes one big crass gesture. It takes a thought that had a nice, rallying point, and crudely smears it on the web.

The original thought is that people won't live in fear of terrorism, and want to extend a nice big middle finger. Expressing it this way? Fail.

The problem here is, they've taken something that's holy to an entire culture, and want to wave that middle finger at the whole lot of them. I wouldn't want to see someone make a film while covering a statue of the Buddha in blood, and I think Piss Christ is kind of gross. I also get very offended when my fellow Asatruars are characterized as beer swilling neo nazis. Over-generlization and stereotyping never helps anyone, and certainly never succeeds in bringing any intelligent point across. It's ugly. It's using a hacksaw, when a nice pair of shears are within reach.

Not every sect or follower of Islam is mysogynist. Not every one of their men are nasty, arrogant woman haters.

Do you paint every culture with such a broad brush?

Are all Asians smart and love math?

Do all Hispanics pick fruit?

You're making the same kind of generalizations.

Also? My bio may say Colorado *now*, but I grew up in Michigan. I've been to Dearborn, too.

I have no love for Islam (seriously. Its one religion I don't really understand well), but I am also not ignorant nor ethnocentric enough to believe that America is perfect. Not every country can function as a republic. Not everything is always as it appears, either. Some Islamic men treat their women poorly. Some treat them like porcelain. Same goes for every culture. Look at the Mormons. Islam doesn't corner the market on misogyny, not by a long shot.

I don't really care if its making fun of a religion---I think its horribly ignorant to insult an entire culture, and essentially, that's what it's done. The gesture has lost it's original meaning, and now it's loose among the masses. I understood why the original caricaturist drew the first one that started the hullaballoo. That *also* has a lot to do with culture, and how his country was feeling about the increasing Muslim presence within their borders. He made a very brave statement that too many were afraid to say. He was bold. This is just stupid.

Edited May 26, 2010 by freydis

[Helicopter Girl]

There's nothing wrong with SATIRE.

The original caricature was SATIRE.

If you read the original post that began the conversation, this isn't about satire. Not really.

yes it is

My problem with it is that the original thought gets lost, and in the even more public forum becomes instead a gross insult to an entire culture. It's ignorant, selfish and stupid. It loses the message completely, and instead just becomes one big crass gesture. It takes a thought that had a nice, rallying point, and crudely smears it on the web.

The original thought is that people won't live in fear of terrorism, and want to extend a nice big middle finger. Expressing it this way? Fail.

The problem here is, they've taken something that's holy to an entire culture, and want to wave that middle finger at the whole lot of them. I wouldn't want to see someone make a film while covering a statue of the Buddha in blood, and I think Piss Christ is kind of gross. I also get very offended when my fellow Asatruars are characterized as beer swilling neo nazis. Over-generlization and stereotyping never helps anyone, and certainly never succeeds in bringing any intelligent point across. It's ugly. It's using a hacksaw, when a nice pair of shears are within reach.

Not every sect or follower of Islam is mysogynist. Not every one of their men are nasty, arrogant woman haters.

Really? So there isn't a major problem with a majority of Muslim nations and womens rights? Have you ever studied this?

Do you paint every culture with such a broad brush?

Are all Asians smart and love math?

Do all Hispanics pick fruit?

You're making the same kind of generalizations.

strawman. Islam is a belief not a race. You'd be DQ'd from our debate team at this point.

I have no love for Islam (seriously. Its one religion I don't really understand well),

yes that is obvious since sexism is part of the dogma, since you admit you don't understand it well I am not sure why you're posting here.

but I am also not ignorant nor ethnocentric enough to believe that America is perfect.

what? what does this have anything to do with anything?

Not every country can function as a republic. Not everything is always as it appears, either. Some Islamic men treat their women poorly. Some treat them like porcelain. Same goes for every culture. Look at the Mormons. Islam doesn't corner the market on misogyny, not by a long shot.

More points deducted. I never said Islam is the only sexist religion. your arguing against points I never made.

MOST major religions are sexist. It's a HUGE problem and Human Rights Watch has labeled Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Indonesia, Oman, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Palestine as violators of womens rights.

I don't really care if its making fun of a religion---I think its horribly ignorant to insult an entire culture, and essentially, that's what it's done. The gesture has lost it's original meaning, and now it's loose among the masses. I understood why the original caricaturist drew the first one that started the hullaballoo. That *also* has a lot to do with culture, and how his country was feeling about the increasing Muslim presence within their borders. He made a very brave statement that too many were afraid to say. He was bold. This is just stupid.

That's your opinion. Fine. But you didn't make a compelling argument at all. And you also are burying your head in the sand if you don't think the entire Culture has had a negative impact on the world. If you were to remove your PC goggles and researched womens rights you would realize it is a major cultural problem. It's not just a few people, it's a majority of the Culture. I'd also suggest reading the Koran before replying because you'd see you've made many mistakes in your thesis. Seriously don't respond until you've studied this more. Please.

[Helicopter Girl]

The United Nations are painting everyone with a broad brush apparently....

United Nations Development Programme observed last summer that “no society can achieve the desired state of well-being and human development, or compete in a globalizing world, if half its people remain marginalized and disempowered. Unfortunately in the Middle East too many women are considered second class citizens”

[freydis]

yes it is

So you're just going to deny my statement without making an arguement?

Weak.

Really? So there isn't a major problem with a majority of Muslim nations and womens rights? Have you ever studied this?

Yes, actually, I've done quite a bit of reading. Largely, it depends on your sources. We could spend all evening at this, but I'm afraid we'll merely find that both of us are able to quote information that supports our own points. *yawn* Counterproductive.

strawman. Islam is a belief not a race. You'd be DQ'd from our debate team at this point.

I said *culture*, not race. The two are not completely inclusive of one another. If you're to argue with my points, quote me correctly, to start with.

For most Muslim nations, the religion and culture are so intertwined, they're inseparable. Their religion not only informs their culture, it *defines* it.

yes that is obvious since sexism is part of the dogma, since you admit you don't understand it well I am not sure why you're posting here.

Nice attempt at re-shaping the statement to your advantage.

What I don't understand is the draw, mostly. I understand probably more than you're assuming, by a rather great amount. I understand what it's about, I simply cannot understand the perspective of their culture--- but that one is simple, it's alien to me. Many points I find antithetical to what I believe myself. You can understand history, rhetoric, sociology; but not having the right perspective creates a situation where there's just some viewpoints you don't really get. I *understand* it... I've done research on quite a few religions and cultures. I don't *get* it.

what? what does this have anything to do with anything?

You're making assumptions based on information with bias openly attached, and making a judgment on the whole thing.

Here's a bit I grabbed elsewhere to illustrate my point:

Ethnocentrism can be understood as the disposition to read the rest of the world, those of different cultural traditions, from inside the conceptual scheme of one's own ethnocultural group. The ethnocentric attitude assumes that one's own ethnic Weltanschauung (worldview) is the only one from which other customs, practices, and habits can be understood and judged. Ethnocentrism thus is conceived critically as involving overgeneralizations about cultures and their inhabitants, others' or one's own, on the basis of limited or skewed, if any, evidence. So the notion of ethnocentrism is conceived as a profound failure to understand other conceptual schemes, and, by extension, practices, habits, expressions, and articulations of others on their own terms. Standing inside our own conceptual schemes, we are blinded even to the possibilities of other ways of thinking, seeing, understanding, and interpreting the world, of being and belonging—in short, other ways of worldmaking.

More points deducted. I never said Islam is the only sexist religion. your arguing against points I never made.

MOST major religions are sexist. It's a HUGE problem and Human Rights Watch has labeled Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Indonesia, Oman, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Palestine as violators of womens rights.

Cheap shot.

You've yet to prove yourself to be an effective debater, and you presume to be keeping the score? Presumptuous, no?

And funny you should follow a statement about not labeling Islam as the poster child offenders of female dignity with a list of Islamic nations....

That's your opinion. Fine. But you didn't make a compelling argument at all.

Neither did you.

And you also are burying your head in the sand if you don't think the entire Culture has had a negative impact on the world. If you were to remove your PC goggles and researched womens rights you would realize it is a major cultural problem. It's not just a few people, it's a majority of the Culture. I'd also suggest reading the Koran before replying because you'd see you've made many mistakes in your thesis. Seriously don't respond until you've studied this more. Please.

There are plenty of factions who have had a negative impact on the world, but I would hardly pass uniform judgment on every one of their people based on the actions of a vocal radical strata.

And honestly, I find your assumptions about me to be more than a bit arrogant.

I'm not a rhetor for political correctness--I've simply learned quite a bit about humans and culture. There are some things you simply cannot presume to *know* from the outside looking in.

Yes, there are human rights abuses that can be blamed on an arrogant population who believe their sex is the greater one. However, it's a battle woman have fought since the beginning of time. There are also plenty of Muslim women who are happy with how they live, are treated exceptionally well, and would be highly offended if you tried to 'free' them from their hijab. Theyd see it much like you would see someone pulling down your pants and exposing you to the public.

There are things that are horrible for the people involved. There are ways that are outdated and simply too insular for this modern time. There are also things that are a part of culture, and presuming to think that the best thing for a people is to make them more like us is precisely the definition of ethnocentric, as I posted above.