What To Do With The Town Psycho/sociopath?

[~Tszura~]

I find it funny that liberals find Capital Punishment cruel and inhumane but this island where they can't do shit about shit and they have to starve to death more "humane"... that's an odd type of justice.

Tszura (above) had mentioned that it is more INHUMANE.. so what is it? Is it more humane than our current prison system or inhumane? I thought we wanted something that was a "fair" outcome... You scoff at my "battle royal scenario" but this island isn't much different.. it just wouldn't be glorified, and televised (and I wouldn't get the royalties from it

All seem pretty cruel to me. But I'm cheap (oh wait a friend of mine said the PC word is FRUGAL), throw the fucking switch... err inject the SOB. and walk away, and forget it ever happened... does that mean I have sociopathic tendencies if I can emotionally deal with this? Probably... if I get carried away, you can throw the switch on me as well.

Hogwash~ you’re too sweet and I’m sure could be cured with just a group hug!!

I see your point about the above. Maybe its just me getting lost in terms. When I think of Capital Punishment, I think of justice first before I use my humane/inhumane lenses. And you're right, technically we could be loosing our humanity when we issue the death penalty, but what is humane and what is justice are two different things. Justice, in this situation, outweighs any sense of humanity for me. Thinking about it purely on a justice/frugality plane, I'm still with the island. And I actually don’t disagree with your “battle royal” scenerio, but I also seem to have a brutal core that would enjoy and find some sort of justice in it.

[Goth Brooks]

I always thought it was the mullet, myself...

Look, Goth Brooks, I could go down point by point with you on your straw men and ad hominems, but that would hijack the thread. All I really need to say, is that I am continually amazed at how the need to "win" an argument on the internet is directly proportional to how ineffectual the tactics used to do as much.

Then you should have sent me your response in a private message. But oh wait, what's the point in "winning" an argument on the internet if there's no one else around to see it?

And clarifying exactly what I have already stated in a previous post with further information is a strawman or ad hominem? How, when I'm posting on my own information, rather than your own. You are aware of what those terms mean, aren't you?

Indeed, seeing as the island idea, in context, and with thought, appeals to a few folks other than myself, I really feel that it is you, not me, that has more work convincing the people of this thread, mostly Michiganders, as to why we should repeal the ban on capital punishment, a ban over one hundred years old.

Why should I? I could care less about whether or not Michigan chooses to enforce capital punishment or keep it banned. The joy of the United States is living in a state that appeals to your sense of justice if you so choose to do so.

If I absolutely had to live in a state with capital punishment, I would move to Texas.

p.s. - Just in case you weren't sure, yes those first paragraphs were personal attacks that time.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Then you should have sent me your response in a private message. But oh wait, what's the point in "winning" an argument on the internet if there's no one else around to see it?

And clarifying exactly what I have already stated in a previous post with further information is a strawman or ad hominem? How, when I'm posting on my own information, rather than your own. You are aware of what those terms mean, aren't you?

p.s. - Just in case you weren't sure, yes those first paragraphs were personal attacks that time.

Stop hatin', start participatin'. Come on, twinkle twinkle, baby, twinkle twinkle.

to pull AWAY from the personal attacks......Capitol Punishment and Banishment aren't the only ways to solve this...but they do seem to be the prime methods....so if we don't want to see something, or deal with something....death and exile are our only ways of dealing??....seems a little outta date if you ask me.

Can we find other solutions?? are we stuck with hope on an island holding them?? or putting them away like cockroaches??

Can we not progress, as a society, beyond this??

[ttogreh]

I suppose if there were some medical procedure or therapy that could make a sociopath or psychopath understand the horrors that he or she has visited upon society, and as such, be horrified by them, then yes, that sounds like a reasonable, if perhaps more expensive way of dealing with a socio or psychopath.

However, I would want the prisoner / patient to be punished more than I would want him or her to be helped. As such, some kind of separation from regular society for the rest of the life of the patient / prisoner would have to be part of the deal.

Of course, a repentant murderer wishing to contribute to society could be rather lucrative to society. Physical labor, art, architecture or other intellectual pursuit... where the state benefits and the prisoner / patient receives a pittance...

That's one way of doing things.

[~Tszura~]

Can we find other solutions?? are we stuck with hope on an island holding them?? or putting them away like cockroaches??

Can we not progress, as a society, beyond this??

I agree.....computer chips anyone?!?

**Twinkle Twinkle**

(Hmmmm, wait a sec. If we get to the point where we could use computer chips implanted in the brain to control behavior, where would this stop?)

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

However, I would want the prisoner / patient to be punished more than I would want him or her to be helped. As such, some kind of separation from regular society for the rest of the life of the patient / prisoner would have to be part of the deal.

Of course, a repentant murderer wishing to contribute to society could be rather lucrative to society. Physical labor, art, architecture or other intellectual pursuit... where the state benefits and the prisoner / patient receives a pittance...

That's one way of doing things.

we have this thing...we call it jail...thats supposed to do that , but as of the past 15 + years at least, jail is more of a vacation then anything else.....

We do have LABOR CAMPS (my favorite solution) that are heavily guarded and actually cost LESS then prison...and is ACTUALLY work....I think we need more!!!!

[TygerLili]

Wait, so we shouldn't lift a ban on capital punishment, but we can chuck "the government shall not inflict cruel and unusual punishment" out the window? Because that's what we'd be doing with the island idea.

Not saying that I'm totally against the island idea, it has it's merits, but I see way more of a chance for the whole thing to go terribly "disaster-movie" awry than any of the other possibilities.

[Goth Brooks]

Wait, so we shouldn't lift a ban on capital punishment, but we can chuck "the government shall not inflict cruel and unusual punishment" out the window? Because that's what we'd be doing with the island idea.

Not saying that I'm totally against the island idea, it has it's merits, but I see way more of a chance for the whole thing to go terribly "disaster-movie" awry than any of the other possibilities.

It's why I like it. The possibilities to bring myself amusement and the government income are endless.

Of course there will always be questions. Would you have two islands, one for each gender? If not, would you go onto the island and separate the offspring of the offenders from their parents? Sterilize them?

What people in this era do not realize is that there were violent criminals far back when the consequences were not only fatal, but also very long, unusual and extremely cruel. What's life in prison, the gas chamber or the needle compared to the rack, crucifixion, drawn and quartering, or keel-hauling. If those didn't stop criminals, "LIFE" isn't going to.

The punishment shouldn't be seen as a deterrent to criminals, because it's not going to be. It should be seen as a way of setting the rest of society's mind at ease.. "When someone does A, we are going to punish them with B and you may rest your mind at ease that they won't do it again."

Death or exile, doesn't matter to me.

Can we not progress, as a society, beyond this??

We're not a society, remember?

Besides, those two are about the only option we have open to us right now.

I'm all for finally progressing into space and using criminals as slave labour, myself. Plenty of rocks out there to play with.

[ttogreh]

Ok... Fine. Hopefully this will be a "thread drift" rather than a thread hijack, which in the heat of the moment, I have been wont to do from time to time. Seeing as this thread is pretty cold, I doubt that anyone will mind if it really is a hijack, any ways.

The idea, or assertion, that society is "a unified body" is on its face, ambiguous and open to interpretation. However, let us examine what such an assertion COULD mean. If society really were a unified body, then my actions, however insignificant or grand, would have a measurable affect on every other member of my society. My gardening in my back yard some how affects, in a meaningful way, the life of an individual on the other side of my continent.

Now, this all hinges on what "meaningful" means to all of us in the context of this thread. I must grant that with sensitive enough metrics, there would be any number of things affected by the gardening in my back yard, and these things may indeed affect people thousands and thousands of miles away from me.

However, I submit that on a practical level, a person living in San Rafael, California could quite honestly not be able to give two farts in a hurricane about my gardening practices in the back yard of my home in Ypsilanti, Michigan. As such, society, in my opinion, is different than a "unified body".

So... what is it?

Well, on the simplest level, I submit that society is "a group of individuals who through conscious or unconscious consensus, live together in peace". So... what the fuck did I just say? If society starts at the micro level, that is, single individuals, rather than at the macro level, "the herd", we must acknowledge that each individual must find his or her own place in greater society, on his or her own.

That... is a powerful statement. It is at the core of the libertarian ethic. I can't tell you how you should live, because, I don't know what your personal journey should be. What I CAN do, is offer advice. If you are hungry, and I have food, I can give it to you. If your are naked, and I have clothes, I can cover you. If you want to learn, I can show you what I have seen.

However, at the same time, I can hoard my food, wear three sets of clothing on top of one another, and not give you the fucking time of day. That would be called "being a douchebag", which is my personal right as an individual.

What I am trying to get at, is that society only works if enough of us realize that there are people without, and give what we can, when we can. That, by the way, is not altruism. Real charity should always be a deeply selfish act. If I feed, clothe, and teach enough jack-asses, a certain number of them might be in a position to feed, clothe, and teach a bunch of others, thereby greatly reducing the chance of me getting stabbed in the face for my ho-ho, sneakers, and copy of the "Daily Blah".

Any ways, that's what I think society is, or at least should be about.

As for what this mind set means in terms of the murderous town psycho or socio path, If an individual is physically incapable of being able to consent to the idea of living in peace with everyone else, then greater society, that is, the conglomeration of individuals, has the right to defend itself against such a threat. Hopefully, that defense will prevent a murder, but if a murder WERE to happen, and it is proven in a court of law that the murderer simply is incapable of change... banishment is not that outrageous of a solution, as far as I am concerned.

[Rev.Reverence]

I suppose if there were some medical procedure or therapy that could make a sociopath or psychopath understand the horrors that he or she has visited upon society, and as such, be horrified by them, then yes, that sounds like a reasonable, if perhaps more expensive way of dealing with a socio or psychopath.

However, I would want the prisoner / patient to be punished more than I would want him or her to be helped. As such, some kind of separation from regular society for the rest of the life of the patient / prisoner would have to be part of the deal.

Of course, a repentant murderer wishing to contribute to society could be rather lucrative to society. Physical labor, art, architecture or other intellectual pursuit... where the state benefits and the prisoner / patient receives a pittance...

That's one way of doing things.

Perhaps this post was not seen? I'll post it a second time!

I remember Tim Leary had (once upon a time) a program of group therapy on LSD...

..everyone HE would release had a great and well adjusted life...THEY shut down his program...

Reference : FLASHBACKS, by, Timothy Leary...(his autobiography)

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Perhaps this post was not seen? I'll post it a second time!

hey...thats what they call "pwnd", isn't it????

[ttogreh]

Eh, not really. I'm open to the idea, but other than the drug-addled musings of one Timothy Leary, is there any credence to his ideas? Some clinical study, perhaps?

[Rev.Reverence]

Eh, not really. I'm open to the idea, but other than the drug-addled musings of one Timothy Leary, is there any credence to his ideas? Some clinical study, perhaps?

You can not GET the study from my understanding...I will go dig to see what I can find...

[Rev.Reverence]

WO...that was faster than I though tit would be...

psychedelics, used with the right dosage, set and setting, and with the guidance of psychology professionals, could alter behavior in unprecedented and beneficial ways. The goals of Leary's research included finding better ways to treat alcoholism and to reform convicted criminals. Many of Leary's research participants reported profound mystical and spiritual experiences, which they claim permanently altered their lives in a very positive manner. According to Leary's autobiography, Flashbacks, they administered LSD to 300 professors, graduate students, writers and philosophers, and 75 percent of them reported it as being like a revelation to them and one of the most educational experiences of their lives.

In the Concord Prison experiment, they administered psilocybin to prisoners, and after being guided through the trips by Leary and his associates, 36 prisoners allegedly turned their backs on crime. The normal recidivism rate of prisoners is about 80 percent, but of the subjects involved in the project, about 80 percent did not return to prison, i.e. a 20 percent recidivism rate. However, the results of this experiment have been largely contested by a follow-up study, citing several problems, including differences in the length of time after release that the study group versus the control group, and other methodology factors, including the difference between subjects re-incarcerated for parole violations versus those imprisoned for new crimes. This study concluded that only a statistically slight improvement could be shown (as opposed to the radical improvement originally reported). In his interview within the study, Leary expressed that the major lesson of the Concord Prison experiment was that the key to a long-term reduction in overall recidivism rates might be the combination of the pre-release administration of psilocybin-assisted group psychotherapy with a comprehensive post-release follow-up program modeled on Alcoholics Anonymous groups to offer support to the released prisoners. The study concluded that whether a new program of psilocybin-assisted group psychotherapy and post-release programs would significantly reduce recidivism rates is an empirical question that deserves to be addressed within the context of a new experiment.

(edit to put in quote tags)

[ttogreh]

Well, I suppose the only thing of concern is that I think it is quite clear that there is a difference between criminality and psychopathy or sociopathy. With that in mind, the therapies described may indeed reduce recidivism rates, and make society better. However, this study did not set itself out to treat hard-core murderous psychopaths and sociopaths.

That... is the question. I agree that further research is warranted, but since I like to err on the side of caution, I would have to say that sociopathy and psychopathy have not yet been cured...

[Rev.Reverence]

Well, I suppose the only thing of concern is that I think it is quite clear that there is a difference between criminality and psychopathy or sociopathy. With that in mind, the therapies described may indeed reduce recidivism rates, and make society better. However, this study did not set itself out to treat hard-core murderous psychopaths and sociopaths.

That... is the question. I agree that further research is warranted, but since I like to err on the side of caution, I would have to say that sociopathy and psychopathy have not yet been cured...

Nor do I think there is a cure...

...much like the schizophrenias I suffer; we can only learn to live&function peaceably with our different 'wiring' and what-not.

I started in on pro-death penalty...THEN I said that on second thought we don't HAVE to kill people that are "cancer" but our gov. seems to have shut down the only project that seems to have had any success in this field...that I have heard of...

..I agree THEY (shrinks 'n' such), should be looking into these old studies.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

The "Monsters" as I'd call them.

This is one of the few subjects I'm fairly black & white on. Either they become non-living or they are put to some sort of profitable use to society in some way that they cant get out to harm anyone but we turn a profit off their nut-job asses, not have to pay to warehouse them. Anything were they end up out of the population and aren't costing us a dime, I'm up for. Dead, slaving away doing something where their output covers the money it costs to babysit them at a minimum, (I'm guessing this would be unrealistic) and/or maybe some sort of human medical research if its deemed more useful to have them around for the good of the advance of science somehow. Generally they forfeited any rights, and we just decide how best to use the meat, even if that means a meat grinder.

[ttogreh]

Troy, just to clarify... you mean murderous and or violent psychopaths or sociopaths, right? Surely the diagnosed but non-violent sociopath does not deserve to be used as slave labor simply because he has a neurological condition, right?

By the way... I, myself have a neurological condition. The idea of throwing people into work camps simply because they are not neurotypical scares the ever-loving shit out of me.

[Rev.Reverence]

Troy, just to clarify... you mean murderous and or violent psychopaths or sociopaths, right? Surely the diagnosed but non-violent sociopath does not deserve to be used as slave labor simply because he has a neurological condition, right?

By the way... I, myself have a neurological condition. The idea of throwing people into work camps simply because they are not neurotypical scares the ever-loving shit out of me.

Ya...that screams of the Nazi party...(diagnosis=institutionalization)

We are talking VIOLENT types...(chronically violent, lifestyle criminals...socio/psychopath diagnosis withstanding)

I don't care if they are diagnosed or not....

That was my main point...IF I CAN BE CIVIL ENOUGH NOT TO END UP IN JAIL...WHY CAN THESE PEOPLE NOT DO SO...

I think we are safe for NOW ttogreh...

(edit to add parenthetical phrases for clarity)

[Goth Brooks]

just noticed this was still on going.. so i'll be back when i get the time.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Troy, just to clarify... you mean murderous and or violent psychopaths or sociopaths, right? Surely the diagnosed but non-violent sociopath does not deserve to be used as slave labor simply because he has a neurological condition, right?

By the way... I, myself have a neurological condition. The idea of throwing people into work camps simply because they are not neurotypical scares the ever-loving shit out of me.

Ya...that screams of the Nazi party...(diagnosis=institutionalization)

We are talking VIOLENT types...(chronically violent, lifestyle criminals...socio/psychopath diagnosis withstanding)

I don't care if they are diagnosed or not....

That was my main point...IF I CAN BE CIVIL ENOUGH NOT TO END UP IN JAIL...WHY CAN THESE PEOPLE NOT DO SO...

I think we are safe for NOW ttogreh...

(edit to add parenthetical phrases for clarity)

Yeah I'm referring to the clear "menace to society" violent sociopaths.

The other part... lets say "permanent vegetative state" or say "no realistic chance of improvement" (and thus some might say "leech on society") types I'd not have this same prescription for. I'd be much more humane.

And for them that don't know (which is probably 90% of the board) I am disabled (heavily) with virtually incurable (as far as any doctors can tell me) several different mental disorders (non violent) which i hide well. Don't think i'm unsympathetic to such things. I'm actually upset there is a cultural separation between "mental disorders" and so-called "real" problems (like a broken arm for instance.)

If we were just talking about your average "bad mental issue" I , along with probably like 10% of the board would get thrown into the meat grinder/labor camps if we used that more broad definition you guys were referencing.

Although i admit I am a fairly card-carrying closet Eugenicist on at least some levels along with several other politically incorrect (but i think correct) biases which i've come to after years of study and thought. Even though i keep them close to the chest.

[Rev.Reverence]

Although i admit I am a fairly card-carrying closet Eugenicist on at least some levels along with several other politically incorrect (but i think correct) biases which i've come to after years of study and thought. Even though i keep them close to the chest.

Yeah...I generally duck after quoting Friedrich Nietzsche...

Or making a pro-Eugenics comment...

ANOTHER thing the freikin' Nazi's dirtied...

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Yeah...I generally duck after quoting Friedrich Nietzsche...

Or making a pro-Eugenics comment...

ANOTHER thing the freikin' Nazi's dirtied...

They soiled the reputation of anything they touched so badly , that its social/political suicide to be involved in anything that even SOUNDS like something they might have supported. Irrational fear screws up a lot of potentially useful lines of inquiry.