Goth Music is Back, But Are Goths Listening?

[Joey Deadcat]

EBM can find its own fucking scene.

http://theskysgoneout.org/

[DJ Nocker]

Give it up joey, there is no goth scene in North America. And its not going to come back. Ive pretty much come to terms with it.

Although I find it funny that I made a mix of mostly new goth stuff Like O. Children and Zola, no one really will care for it, especialy in the bar scene.

It seems to be the same way in Canada, I spoke with a ton of people about the "GOTH" scene, and it was the same response from everyone "There is no Goth scene, its all futurepop". Thats what its turned into.

Sad but true.

EDIT:

Remind me to get you a copy of that mix, Im very proud of it. its about 45 minutes long, got all kinds of cool stuff

Edited June 20, 2011 by DJ Nocker

[Joey Deadcat]

True - it's always gonna be like shouting in the wind and only the choir will here.

All it is now is a fashion show (and an increasingly trite on at that) or a cosplaying community - a weekend cosplaying community; and it has taken on the attributes of mainstream culture in that the majority just can't bothered with anything outside the box. Thus, that attitude and that type of thinking has this scene looking sadly out of place and kind of left behind.

[phee]

True - it's always gonna be like shouting in the wind and only the choir will here.

All it is now is a fashion show (and an increasingly trite on at that) or a cosplaying community - a weekend cosplaying community; and it has taken on the attributes of mainstream culture in that the majority just can't bothered with anything outside the box. Thus, that attitude and that type of thinking has this scene looking sadly out of place and kind of left behind.

Joey... you are the North American Goth scene.....

[DJ Nocker]

True - it's always gonna be like shouting in the wind and only the choir will here.

All it is now is a fashion show (and an increasingly trite on at that) or a cosplaying community - a weekend cosplaying community; and it has taken on the attributes of mainstream culture in that the majority just can't bothered with anything outside the box. Thus, that attitude and that type of thinking has this scene looking sadly out of place and kind of left behind.

Been saying that for a while now, as you well know.

Im over it these days, no point getting frustrated with it, wont change anything. There is a small handful of us that will still support and appreciate it but yea, everyone is either stuck in the 80's, or is playing dress up... Shit happens, At least music is still being made to cater to a few of us

[Joey Deadcat]

Oh yeah, wanna check out that mix, btw!

[DJ Nocker]

Oh yeah, wanna check out that mix, btw!

I havent thrown it up on soundcloud yet, but yell at me via facebook or something, ill make sure to get it to you

[Troy Spiral (13)]

As far as I can tell , its always been more about the look/atmosphere than anything else as that is the defining characteristic (in the US). The actual technuqie used to render that atmosphere wasn't necessarily the defining characteristic, its been in a morphing state since before anyone used the term goth. Not that I necessarily like that, its just the way it is/was. Tons of music "sounds" Gothic, but many are afraid to define it as such. And don't get me wrong I get pissed off on and off, but I've sort of went to my zen place about it in the last 8 years or so.

Goth doesn't necessarily even need music. Edgar Allen Poe was Gothic long before there was 'goth music'.

I wasn't involved during this mythological time when there was a "real" goth scene. Every 6 months since the day I was involved I've heard "goth is dead" so... 16ish(?) years and I've read and been told that was the same going all the way back. I remember reading an article with Trent Reznor saying that he liked goth and was interested in this "goth industrial crossover" thing that was happening, although at the time I don't think anyone thought it would go all the way over to the dancy/techo side at the clubs at the time.

Goth, less narrowly defined is larger now than it ever was. Narrowly defined it was still birthed from the beginning in a way. Goth existed before the music scene did, so i tend not to get too upset about musical preferences. Although I AM upset at a lack of any club that even really attempts to be an "actual goth club" (of any size that lasts longer than a year), even if they don't do/play what I want them to, it would be nice to see a "full time" goth club somewhere locally. But not so upset as to act as if goth as an idea is gone. It really is far larger now than in any previous time, even if some of us might want to say that the "quality" of it is diminished. I'm also time-independant, so I dont necessarily need to have "new" goth sound the same as "old" goth , nor do i even care if its "new" or "old". It exists.

You can find writings from the early 80s saying that goth is dead, . (or never really existed as a fully coherent scene. I've never defined it as something that can only exist if it is defined a certain way. Even many of what are widely considered "the goth bands" are (and have been) afraid to use the term. Its long been up to "us" (whoever "we" are) to define something as goth, and that definition has no dictionary. Its highly variable. Its also not just (at least not for the vast majority) just a "musical style" but also is a visual / environmental or just thematic atmosphere, which, can include not everything, but an extremely wide swath of whats out there. Be that music, books, or even just (unfortunately or fortunately depending on what level of elitism your set point is at) clothing / attitude.

Goth as a "widespread" thing was a quasi stillbirth to begin with and has remained in a confused/confusing/misunderstood (perhaps impossible to understand) state ever since. How many people does it take to make "a scene" maybe one or two , twenty would be plenty. I can only talk to one person at a time so if there are 20 people, that will be a full time job for the rest of my life to actually keep up with them.

"My Personal Idea of a Scene" is about all someone can really say, as there is no Official Goth Codex ™©.

[Destroit]

As far as I can tell , its always been more about the look/atmosphere than anything else as that is the defining characteristic (in the US). The actual technuqie used to render that atmosphere wasn't necessarily the defining characteristic, its been in a morphing state since before anyone used the term goth. Not that I necessarily like that, its just the way it is/was. Tons of music "sounds" Gothic, but many are afraid to define it as such. And don't get me wrong I get pissed off on and off, but I've sort of went to my zen place about it in the last 8 years or so.

Goth doesn't necessarily even need music. Edgar Allen Poe was Gothic long before there was 'goth music'.

I wasn't involved during this mythological time when there was a "real" goth scene. Every 6 months since the day I was involved I've heard "goth is dead" so... 16ish(?) years and I've read and been told that was the same going all the way back. I remember reading an article with Trent Reznor saying that he liked goth and was interested in this "goth industrial crossover" thing that was happening, although at the time I don't think anyone thought it would go all the way over to the dancy/techo side at the clubs at the time.

Goth, less narrowly defined is larger now than it ever was. Narrowly defined it was still birthed from the beginning in a way. Goth existed before the music scene did, so i tend not to get too upset about musical preferences. Although I AM upset at a lack of any club that even really attempts to be an "actual goth club" (of any size that lasts longer than a year), even if they don't do/play what I want them to, it would be nice to see a "full time" goth club somewhere locally. But not so upset as to act as if goth as an idea is gone. It really is far larger now than in any previous time, even if some of us might want to say that the "quality" of it is diminished. I'm also time-independant, so I dont necessarily need to have "new" goth sound the same as "old" goth , nor do i even care if its "new" or "old". It exists.

You can find writings from the early 80s saying that goth is dead, . (or never really existed as a fully coherent scene. I've never defined it as something that can only exist if it is defined a certain way. Even many of what are widely considered "the goth bands" are (and have been) afraid to use the term. Its long been up to "us" (whoever "we" are) to define something as goth, and that definition has no dictionary. Its highly variable. Its also not just (at least not for the vast majority) just a "musical style" but also is a visual / environmental or just thematic atmosphere, which, can include not everything, but an extremely wide swath of whats out there. Be that music, books, or even just (unfortunately or fortunately depending on what level of elitism your set point is at) clothing / attitude.

Goth as a "widespread" thing was a quasi stillbirth to begin with and has remained in a confused/confusing/misunderstood (perhaps impossible to understand) state ever since. How many people does it take to make "a scene" maybe one or two , twenty would be plenty. I can only talk to one person at a time so if there are 20 people, that will be a full time job for the rest of my life to actually keep up with them.

"My Personal Idea of a Scene" is about all someone can really say, as there is no Official Goth Codex ©.

The way you explain shit is unreal .

[DJ Nocker]

As far as I can tell , its always been more about the look/atmosphere than anything else as that is the defining characteristic (in the US). The actual technuqie used to render that atmosphere wasn't necessarily the defining characteristic, its been in a morphing state since before anyone used the term goth. Not that I necessarily like that, its just the way it is/was. Tons of music "sounds" Gothic, but many are afraid to define it as such. And don't get me wrong I get pissed off on and off, but I've sort of went to my zen place about it in the last 8 years or so.

Goth doesn't necessarily even need music. Edgar Allen Poe was Gothic long before there was 'goth music'.

I wasn't involved during this mythological time when there was a "real" goth scene. Every 6 months since the day I was involved I've heard "goth is dead" so... 16ish(?) years and I've read and been told that was the same going all the way back. I remember reading an article with Trent Reznor saying that he liked goth and was interested in this "goth industrial crossover" thing that was happening, although at the time I don't think anyone thought it would go all the way over to the dancy/techo side at the clubs at the time.

Goth, less narrowly defined is larger now than it ever was. Narrowly defined it was still birthed from the beginning in a way. Goth existed before the music scene did, so i tend not to get too upset about musical preferences. Although I AM upset at a lack of any club that even really attempts to be an "actual goth club" (of any size that lasts longer than a year), even if they don't do/play what I want them to, it would be nice to see a "full time" goth club somewhere locally. But not so upset as to act as if goth as an idea is gone. It really is far larger now than in any previous time, even if some of us might want to say that the "quality" of it is diminished. I'm also time-independant, so I dont necessarily need to have "new" goth sound the same as "old" goth , nor do i even care if its "new" or "old". It exists.

You can find writings from the early 80s saying that goth is dead, . (or never really existed as a fully coherent scene. I've never defined it as something that can only exist if it is defined a certain way. Even many of what are widely considered "the goth bands" are (and have been) afraid to use the term. Its long been up to "us" (whoever "we" are) to define something as goth, and that definition has no dictionary. Its highly variable. Its also not just (at least not for the vast majority) just a "musical style" but also is a visual / environmental or just thematic atmosphere, which, can include not everything, but an extremely wide swath of whats out there. Be that music, books, or even just (unfortunately or fortunately depending on what level of elitism your set point is at) clothing / attitude.

Goth as a "widespread" thing was a quasi stillbirth to begin with and has remained in a confused/confusing/misunderstood (perhaps impossible to understand) state ever since. How many people does it take to make "a scene" maybe one or two , twenty would be plenty. I can only talk to one person at a time so if there are 20 people, that will be a full time job for the rest of my life to actually keep up with them.

"My Personal Idea of a Scene" is about all someone can really say, as there is no Official Goth Codex ©.

Ok, I got time to kill...

First off, I wasnt around for it either, I just wish I was. Its something I am pretty passionate about.

Its obvious that "gothic" stuff existed before it was coined as a musical genre. I think its clear we are talking about the musical side of goth stuff. Goth MUSIC IS easily categorized, is simply a sub genre of Post-Punk that is darker themed, a proper name for goth MUSIC that is dumbed down would be "Dark Post-Punk". So it is pretty damn easy to say if something has a goth sound to it as apposed to a "darker" sound, which is much more common. Not sure when you started listening to the stuff (ill assume late 80s), but of course there were people that were saying goth was dead back in the day, Goths are one of the most pretentious sub cultures in the world, and the scene had a huge following for a short time that has just slowly drifted off, so in a sense, its been dying for a while (lol). The difference is that now, it really is. At least where we are concerned.

The goth scene IS dead in the states, and has become entirely Dark EBM/Industrial dance clubs. There is a clear difference between goth/dark post-punk music and electronic music of any type. Talk to people in the U.K., where there still is some semblance of a goth scene, where in a goth club, you will hear different music than in an industrial themed bar. Im saddened by this but also have a love for dark electronic music, so its not all bad.

And as for people starting an actual goth themed night around here? IM CALLING BULL SHIT! Certain people, who will remain nameless, have tried SO HARD! people are just to apathetic/scared to leave there security nets and try it.

The term goth, is a derogatory statement in the music scene, which is why alot of bands (including founders of the genre) try and stay away from it. Most new goth bands, and old ones, are now classified as just "Post-Punk" like I stated in the start of my post.

end rant.

Edited June 20, 2011 by DJ Nocker

[Troy Spiral (13)]

The way you explain shit is unreal .

Its that long-winded quality that puts people in a sleep-coma.

[Destroit]

And as for people starting an actual goth themed night around here? IM CALLING BULL SHIT! Certain people, who will remain nameless, have tried SO HARD! people are just to apathetic/scared to leave there security nets and try it.

Quoted for truth

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Ok, I got time to kill...

First off, I wasnt around for it either, I just wish I was. Its something I am pretty passionate about.

Its obvious that "gothic" stuff existed before it was coined as a musical genre. I think its clear we are talking about the musical side of goth stuff. Goth MUSIC IS easily categorized, is simply a sub genre of Post-Punk that is darker themed, a proper name for goth MUSIC that is dumbed down would be "Dark Post-Punk". So it is pretty damn easy to say if something has a goth sound to it as apposed to a "darker" sound, which is much more common. Not sure when you started listening to the stuff (ill assume late 80s), but of course there were people that were saying goth was dead back in the day, Goths are one of the most pretentious sub cultures in the world, and the scene had a huge following for a short time that has just slowly drifted off, so in a sense, its been dying for a while (lol). The difference is that now, it really is. At least where we are concerned.

The goth scene IS dead in the states, and has become entirely Dark EBM/Industrial dance clubs. There is a clear difference between goth/dark post-punk music and electronic music of any type. Talk to people in the U.K., where there still is some semblance of a goth scene, where in a goth club, you will hear different music than in an industrial themed bar. Im saddened by this but also have a love for dark electronic music, so its not all bad.

And as for people starting an actual goth themed night around here? BULL SHIT Certain people, who will remain nameless, have tried SO HARD! people are just to apathetic/scared to leave there security nets and try it.

The term goth, is a derogatory statement in the music scene, which is why alot of bands (including founders of the genre) try and stay away from it. Most new goth bands, and old ones, are now classified as just "Post-Punk" like I stated in the start of my post.

end rant.

I didn't say or didn't mean to say no one has tried, or there were no efforts made. I do actually read posts before I respond. Maybe your just responding in general, but just asumme when I post i'm not trying to be negative, becasue I rarely ever am. I try to just be open/positive when I post. (Even though internally I may be more brooding/synical) I try not to do that on the board. I'm a long, long time, jaded supporter of previous attempts, although not in the last half decade as my health issues make even just dragging my ass out of the house once a week , over any distance a much harder chore than is apparent from just "looking" at me. But at least the 4-5 I was involved with ended with the promoters getting exasperated and giving up, which is the part were it ends. I'd guess and say it would take say 3+ years to get a "traditional" goth club rolling as there is just not the "hardcore" people here yet, and we would have to build it by "educating" the scene (or lack of) over time. Unfortunately it also costs a lot of $$ during that ramp-up period to sort of "float" the effort until it hits a critical mass, which, unfortunately that $$ is in short supply. Don't get me wrong I can understand the frustration and I appreciate the efforts, the problem is they just haven't amounted to much, its not that no one WANTED them to exist , or continue. Its an uphill battle. One that I'm honestly not sure if , without some key deep-pockets benefactor is realistic , it often does (unfortunately) come down to money (or better stated: resources).

[DJ Nocker]

I didn't say or didn't mean to say no one has tried, or there were no efforts made. I do actually read posts before I respond. Maybe your just responding in general, but just asumme when I post i'm not trying to be negative, becasue I rarely ever am. I try to just be open/positive when I post. (Even though internally I may be more brooding/synical) I try not to do that on the board. I'm a long, long time, jaded supporter of previous attempts, although not in the last half decade as my health issues make even just dragging my ass out of the house once a week , over any distance a much harder chore than is apparent from just "looking" at me. But at least the 4-5 I was involved with ended with the promoters getting exasperated and giving up, which is the part were it ends. I'd guess and say it would take say 3+ years to get a "traditional" goth club rolling as there is just not the "hardcore" people here yet, and we would have to build it by "educating" the scene (or lack of) over time. Unfortunately it also costs a lot of $$ during that ramp-up period to sort of "float" the effort until it hits a critical mass, which, unfortunately that $$ is in short supply. Don't get me wrong I can understand the frustration and I appreciate the efforts, the problem is they just haven't amounted to much, its not that no one WANTED them to exist , or continue. Its an uphill battle. One that I'm honestly not sure if , without some key deep-pockets benefactor is realistic , it often does (unfortunately) come down to money (or better stated: resources).

Doesnt matter how much money you seep into it, or how much you charge. People expect you to have a free night AND a blowjob to go out any place aside from necto or city club. And simply put, people like dark electro more than the traditional goth sound now. Or people just dont find the music to be "clubworthy".

EDIT:

This is going to turn into an old worn out topic, back to the OP. Joey you posted a cool link, hopefully Someone other than Justin Carver or myself will play this stuff when they spin. If people are actually interested in hearing this stuff, come out and support the people that do play it. Justin has a monthly night called "Something Cold" that I also DJ at on occasion, and Myself along with DJ Saint would play it on Wednesday nights (Industrial Wednesdays) if people came out and WANTED to hear it.

Edited June 20, 2011 by DJ Nocker

[DJ Saint]

Oh yeah, wanna check out that mix, btw!

Damn good mix it is!

[DJDeadbeat]

2010-11 HAVE BEEN THE BEST YEARS FOR DARK MUSIC IN A LONG TIME. With that said/shouted...

I think GOOD "goth" infused and inspired music is at its all time high right now. The current music scene is so incredible and exciting right now that it is hard to even keep up with. Booking requests and inquiries are pouring in and out at Something Cold, it's getting crazy! I've begun bringing on people for help! But you got to look for it outside of "goth boards" and communities.

Stuff like Soft Kill, Project Komakino, Craft Spells, Blank Dogs, Dream Affair, Iceage, and the Pleasure Leftists (who are playing in Hamtramck on July 3rd, check them out if you have even the SLIGHTEST interest in trad-goth music) are keeping the '82 goth/post-punk vibe alive and exciting. But this stuff isn't being listened to within the "deathrock" scene and most of the "goth" scene nowadays seems to be centered within the indie community. Why? Because thats where good music is coming out of, being played within, being toured within, being distributed and released throughout. Who put out 13th Chime's reissues? Not Cleopatra records. Sacred Bones records. The same label that put out Zola Jesus, Cult of Youth....among Vermillion Sands and other "hipster-y"/indie bands.

If you want to find NEW "goth" music, those who "still" listen to old goth music, and venues that PLAY it - you're going to have to look outside of "goth" boards and do more subversive searching.

While the "deathrock" scene in the US seems to be tired and jerking off to everything pre-2005, the minimal-synth, coldwave, post-punk and "art-fag-y" stuff is on a MASSIVE bender of popularity. I'm in hog heaven.

*listens to Light Asylum, Austra, Trust, Xeno & Oaklander, Led Er Est, Automelodi, Soft Kill, Sixth June and smiles*

[Joey Deadcat]

2010-11 HAVE BEEN THE BEST YEARS FOR DARK MUSIC IN A LONG TIME. With that said/shouted...

I think GOOD "goth" infused and inspired music is at its all time high right now. The current music scene is so incredible and exciting right now that it is hard to even keep up with. Booking requests and inquiries are pouring in and out at Something Cold, it's getting crazy! I've begun bringing on people for help! But you got to look for it outside of "goth boards" and communities.

Stuff like Soft Kill, Project Komakino, Craft Spells, Blank Dogs, Dream Affair, Iceage, and the Pleasure Leftists (who are playing in Hamtramck on July 3rd, check them out if you have even the SLIGHTEST interest in trad-goth music) are keeping the '82 goth/post-punk vibe alive and exciting. But this stuff isn't being listened to within the "deathrock" scene and most of the "goth" scene nowadays seems to be centered within the indie community. Why? Because thats where good music is coming out of, being played within, being toured within, being distributed and released throughout. Who put out 13th Chime's reissues? Not Cleopatra records. Sacred Bones records. The same label that put out Zola Jesus, Cult of Youth....among Vermillion Sands and other "hipster-y"/indie bands.

If you want to find NEW "goth" music, those who "still" listen to old goth music, and venues that PLAY it - you're going to have to look outside of "goth" boards and do more subversive searching.

While the "deathrock" scene in the US seems to be tired and jerking off to everything pre-2005, the minimal-synth, coldwave, post-punk and "art-fag-y" stuff is on a MASSIVE bender of popularity. I'm in hog heaven.

*listens to Light Asylum, Austra, Trust, Xeno & Oaklander, Led Er Est, Automelodi, Soft Kill, Sixth June and smiles*

This is why the whole fishnets/dreadfalls/goggles circle has been become very trite, dancing in willful and blissful ignorance while new amazing stuff passes them by. And the deathrock set have been just as guilty. At least break away into a cosplaying scene if music isn't your thing.

Otherwise, ditch the fashion show, pinup posturing, and scene habits - it's all about mood and sounds now, kids.

And what moods and sounds they are!

[DJ Nocker]

hipster is the new goth, goth's just dont want to admit it. LoL.

[Destroit]

Otherwise, ditch the fashion show, pinup posturing, and scene habits - it's all about mood and sounds now, kids.

I don't get it though, I thought that these have been in the scene all along. Definitely NOT to the degree they are now, so I can agree on that part, it's gotten out of hand. I don't completely agree with abolishing and looking down on all fashion and such...didn't most goths start silently expressing their affiliation with the music by wearing mostly black and dark things? That's fashion.

[DJ Nocker]

I don't get it though, I thought that these have been in the scene all along. Definitely NOT to the degree they are now, so I can agree on that part, it's gotten out of hand. I don't completely agree with abolishing and looking down on all fashion and such...didn't most goths start silently expressing their affiliation with the music by wearing mostly black and dark things? That's fashion.

I personally could care less about the fashion. Most people that see me wouldnt know off the bat that I am in love with goth/industrial stuff, since I just wear black clothes, I dont deck myself out in fishnets and platform boots anymore. It is an important part of it I guess, but dressing up like a hardcore deathrocker without liking anything deathrock just seems silly to me (ib4 someone says "I dress in what I like").

[Destroit]

but dressing up like a hardcore deathrocker without liking anything deathrock just seems silly to me (ib4 someone says "I dress in what I like").

Big pet peeve of mine. Mostly it's girls who are "cyber-industrial" but are really just preppy and trying to play sexy badass Halloween to get their man, or other men at the club, hot. Bothersssss me. There are even a few that are on here that will go nameless .

Edited June 21, 2011 by Chernobyl

[DJ Nocker]

Big pet peeve of mine. Mostly it's girls who are "cyber-industrial" but are really just preppy and trying to play sexy badass Halloween to get their man, or other men at the club, hot. Bothersssss me. There are even a few that are on here that will go nameless .

LoL slinky dreads....

[Joey Deadcat]

And that's just it - it's become more of a "dress-up" scene - music optional. I already know that many folks in this scene would shun these newer and current artists for their lack of "oontz", stompiness, and booty-grinding value but you know that they would really be put off by these artists' lack of "image".

A lot of bands these days lacking any contrived look to distract from the sounds they're putting out.

[victoriavengeance (1)]

clubs have made it the fashionable thing, the hip thing, the trend. to go cyber, to be all 'industrial', and I think, as I just said, that clubs have made it into the fashion show. You hear the same music every monday at Necto, you hear a lot of the same stuff at City [i'll give the djs this, they're playing some newer stuff lately], but everyone's stuck in that- no one WANTS to hear anything different. Everyone requests personal jesus, everyone dances to the same shit and wants to hear it. You request something dark and maybe not the most DANCE-y song, but no one will play it because it's out of the norm. It's annoying. It's hard to mesh the club scene with stuff nowadays. If any of that made sense. /rant.

[DJ Nocker]

clubs have made it the fashionable thing, the hip thing, the trend. to go cyber, to be all 'industrial', and I think, as I just said, that clubs have made it into the fashion show. You hear the same music every monday at Necto, you hear a lot of the same stuff at City [i'll give the djs this, they're playing some newer stuff lately], but everyone's stuck in that- no one WANTS to hear anything different. Everyone requests personal jesus, everyone dances to the same shit and wants to hear it. You request something dark and maybe not the most DANCE-y song, but no one will play it because it's out of the norm. It's annoying. It's hard to mesh the club scene with stuff nowadays. If any of that made sense. /rant.

Try going some place aside from necto and city, you might be surprised what gets played....wonder how many times ive said that now...