Jesus Camp

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Any beleif system can be forced.. be it Christian, Muslim, Atheism or what ever. Forcing your own beleifs on someone else never works. You may convert them to what evber faith you hold.. but true Faith comes from within.

My 8 year old asked me recently why we don't go to church. I told him, "Son, I don't know what religion you are yet." WE have since started going to church. Every sunday we go to a different one. When he finds one he likes,, we'll start going there regular. I have never understood trying to force Faith.

[Gauge]

Any beleif system can be forced.. be it Christian, Muslim, Atheism or what ever. Forcing your own beleifs on someone else never works. You may convert them to what evber faith you hold.. but true Faith comes from within.

My 8 year old asked me recently why we don't go to church. I told him, "Son, I don't know what religion you are yet." WE have since started going to church. Every sunday we go to a different one. When he finds one he likes,, we'll start going there regular. I have never understood trying to force Faith.

i completely agree.

[BrassFusion]

Any beleif system can be forced.. be it Christian, Muslim, Atheism or what ever. Forcing your own beleifs on someone else never works. You may convert them to what evber faith you hold.. but true Faith comes from within.

My 8 year old asked me recently why we don't go to church. I told him, "Son, I don't know what religion you are yet." WE have since started going to church. Every sunday we go to a different one. When he finds one he likes,, we'll start going there regular. I have never understood trying to force Faith.

That's hella awesome of you. Opening a dialogue to that is the best thing a parent could do.

[phee]

Any beleif system can be forced.. be it Christian, Muslim, Atheism or what ever. Forcing your own beleifs on someone else never works. You may convert them to what evber faith you hold.. but true Faith comes from within.

My 8 year old asked me recently why we don't go to church. I told him, "Son, I don't know what religion you are yet." WE have since started going to church. Every sunday we go to a different one. When he finds one he likes,, we'll start going there regular. I have never understood trying to force Faith.

Wisdom here

[Steven]

wow. this is getting to be a long thread....

so you dont think that theres a strong possibility that they are going to their parents and the very same thing might be happening there as it does in school/churches?

Answer: Your missing me Gauge. Of course there is a strong possibility. There is also - also being the key word and suggestion throughout - that there is a strong possibility that there are good parents who are not repeating the process that the kid is expereinceing in school. I am not dismissing your ex[eriences or your points Gauge. In fact I think that you have done a good job making yoru points and that they are valid. I am simply asking you to consider that there is more than what you know at the moment. I think that's pretty fair.

the question wasnt about children who believe or who are happy and secure, ive already stated before that its possible theyre either blindly following or theyve actually researched it and could be very happy or whatever the case may be and are happy with the decision to become or continue being christian. the real question is towards the other ones. the ones dont believe or are not happy and secure with the idea of christianity or it being forced on them.

Answer: I dont know specifically what your asking me here. Are you asking me to agree that this happens? YES I agree. Are you asking me if I condone it? NO I do not.

but do you see it now? from an adults standpoint? you are the ones (not specifically you but more meaning christian adults) that are now in the position to be doing the forcing (again not saying you are). how do you think your childhood, or my childhood, or any child going through life right now, might have been if your parents (in this case your father) had not been raised christian? i know for a fact that from my side of things if my father had not been forced into religion when he was younger he wouldnt be how he is now.

Answer: My father was not raised this way (a Christian). My father was a very (very) simple and angry man who lacked many basic social and comunicative skills. He was desperate for CONTROL and social acceptance. False religion provided him both of these things. We (his children) were secondary to his needs. I am not like my father. I was raised in a very fucked up and abusive household. But I had to learn to be responsible for ME - and look at my own end results. We all have to do this, but many of us do not. My dad did not. Your dad did not. And god yes, OF COURSE as an adult I can see these things now. And as an adult I get involved. I am one of thsoe Christian adults Gauge. Only I do not allow my behaviour and methodology to be controlled by others. You allready know this about me.

im just going to refer to my point above and add that an overly religious parent dont often see the kind of pain that a child is going through as being unsafe. i know that (again from my experiences) when i would go to my dad about things like that he "knew" that it was gods way of telling him to push harder. its seen as the path that needs to be taken out of sin and into gods arms.

Answer: YES!!!!!!! You are right. Religion is dogma is legalism is blindness is powerless is false. And too much of that is too much of an allready bad thing. Contrary to popular opinion, I'm not religeous. Everything I do, think, process, filter, approach, attempt, argue, and consider comes from the example of Christ and how he did things. I pursue - on my own - of my own free will - a certain model that I find incredibly consistent and powerful. It does not come from some religeous sect or rulebook or social circle. Your father was wrong. He meant well. but he did not press onward beyond the surface. What he thought, from your description, is very very "Christianeze". We need to be more than that. I am constantly challenging myself - to be more than that.

im not saying that you personally have forced your religion on anyone and maybe the group of people you know of havent either but from what ive seen, personal or not, that is not the norm.

Answer: OK I'll even buy this, because I know what you mean. I do. But your talking to a person who has lived many places, has known many people, and has had his fair share of expereinces. This includes much change throughout my Christian walk. What was taught to me did not come from a small unique click. I learned it over years, from many different people in many different places.

Do any of us want to be "the norm" Gague? Christian or Secular or Goth or whatever? Should we cling to the norm? Is the norm so far reaching that it is the only credible semblence of an absolute?

[Gauge]

Answer: I dont know specifically what your asking me here. Are you asking me to agree that this happens? YES I agree. Are you asking me if I condone it? NO I do not.

i wasnt really aiming for an answer with that one, it was more or less just a "closing statement" for that part

Answer: Religion is dogma is legalism is blindness is powerless is false. And too much of that is too much of an allready bad thing.

thats pretty much all ive been trying to say =)

Everything I do, think, process, filter, approach, attempt, argue, and consider comes from the example of Christ and how he did things. I pursue - on my own - of my own free will - a certain model that I find incredibly consistent and powerful. It does not come from some religeous sect or rulebook or social circle. I am constantly challenging myself - to be more than that.

i can definately apreciate that kind of thought. it makes more sence to me than the typical christian viewpoint.

Answer: OK I'll even buy this, because I know what you mean. I do. But your talking to a person who has lived many places, has known many people, and has had his fair share of expereinces. This includes much change throughout my Christian walk. What was taught to me did not come from a small unique click. I learned it over years, from many different people in many different places.

and i to have lived in many places (for my time anyway) and known many people and had many experiences. but what im seeing is . . . well how to put it. . .say for example i take you and your experiences and me with mine, yours beeing more possitive (nothing beeing force fed) and mine beeing more negative (everything beeing force fed). i can take those two and apreciate them for what they are. at the same time i have to look out tho at what i see in the world and how christianity in the sence of family and children are concerned and to be quite honest with you at least 90% of what i see is doing nothing but back up what ive experienced. i think its great that your not like that and that youve found a group of people who arent like that but i still do not see most of the rest of the world following your trend.

Do any of us want to be "the norm" Gague? Christian or Secular or Goth or whatever? Should we cling to the norm? Is the norm so far reaching that it is the only credible semblence of an absolute?

im only using norm in the case because its a very broad spectrum of ideas. i could go listing of all the names of people who have proven my point and you could do the same with yours but that would just be silly

[Steven]

[i wasnt really aiming for an answer with that one, it was more or less just a "closing statement" for that part

[gotcha

thats pretty much all ive been trying to say =)

Me too.

i can definately apreciate that kind of thought. it makes more sence to me than the typical christian viewpoint.

its the only thing that does make sense and the only thing that he taught us to do. The Typical Christian is typically wrong.

and i too have lived in many places (for my time anyway) and known many people and had many experiences. but what im seeing is . . . well how to put it. . .say for example i take you and your experiences and me with mine, yours beeing more possitive (nothing beeing force fed) and mine beeing more negative (everything beeing force fed). i can take those two and apreciate them for what they are. at the same time i have to look out tho at what i see in the world and how christianity in the sence of family and children are concerned and to be quite honest with you at least 90% of what i see is doing nothing but back up what ive experienced. i think its great that your not like that and that youve found a group of people who arent like that but i still do not see most of the rest of the world following your trend.

That's cause I am a freakin trendsetter, babe. Its a thankless job but good work if you can get it.

im only using norm in the case because its a very broad spectrum of ideas. i could go listing of all the names of people who have proven my point and you could do the same with yours but that would just be silly

I know. I just want to give you a bit to think about. Peace.