Jesus Camp

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Interesting documentary incomming.

http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/

[Guest Game of Chance]

Interesting documentary incomming.

http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/

What was it called again? HitlerYouthTheMovie?

[mallochai]

I saw the trailer for this on tv the other day.

I can't believe that kid who said ... something like... "when I meet people who don't believe in jesus, it makes me sick."

He makes ME sick.

[Steven]

I saw the trailer for this on tv the other day.

I can't believe that kid who said ... something like... "when I meet people who don't believe in jesus, it makes me sick."

He makes ME sick.

me too. cause that kid doesent know much about this Jesus he supposedly beleives in.

[BrassFusion]

me too. cause that kid doesent know much about this Jesus he supposedly beleives in.

*platonically loves on steven*

[saechalyn]

Oh sweet. I can't wait to see this.

[mallochai]

me too. cause that kid doesent know much about this Jesus he supposedly beleives in.

EXACTLY!

[Slept with ghost]

watching the preview i found it hard to tell if the movie was made for or against christians

[Guest Game of Chance]

me too. cause that kid doesent know much about this Jesus he supposedly beleives in.

lol...who does?

[Steven]

lol...who does?

me of course.

[Gauge]

i think the whole thing is a little disturbing really. religion is beeing forced down the throats of children to such an extent today that they arent even able to form their own opinions. there sat in a room to listen to people read from a book and tell them what to think, and all that leads to is them regurgitating the same back to others without really knowing what it all means. at 6 years old most kids arent sure about anything especially something like becoming "god soldiers".

[BrassFusion]

watching the preview i found it hard to tell if the movie was made for or against christians

I read on the wikipedia article that it's supposed to have been created to be as neutral as possible.

[Steven]

i think the whole thing is a little disturbing really. religion is beeing forced down the throats of children to such an extent today that they arent even able to form their own opinions. there sat in a room to listen to people read from a book and tell them what to think, and all that leads to is them regurgitating the same back to others without really knowing what it all means. at 6 years old most kids arent sure about anything especially something like becoming "god soldiers".

in fairness....sometimes yes, often no. This post I'm doing has nothign to do with the movei because I have not seen it yet - I'm talking in general......

any 6 year old is going to be molded to a certain degree in that the parentals will be introducing some sort of specific structure and idealism. We all grew up with that. But the "forcing" down their throats to the extent that they cannot form their own opinions....thats a bit harsh. Remember too that these kids become teens. some of whom leave their former faith based backgrounds behind, while others press forward into a deeper understanding of their faith and purpose. Both of those approaches requires personal decisions to be made. I know alot of great well balanced kids who DEFINATELY have their own opinions, and who happen to be beleivers like I am.

try to give them a little credit. there is balance to all thigns hopefuilly.

there are some brilliant minds here in DGN.

Likewise, there are some brilliant minds in christian youth circles.

and they often DO dig deeper into their faith, its history, and relevance to modern times.

what I'm suggesting to you is that its hard to take a bunch of young children, read scripture to them, and expect them to be good little mindless zombies well into their adult years. it just doesent work that way.

[Gauge]

any 6 year old is going to be molded to a certain degree in that the parentals will be introducing some sort of specific structure and idealism. We all grew up with that. But the "forcing" down their throats to the extent that they cannot form their own opinions....thats a bit harsh. Remember too that these kids become teens. some of whom leave their former faith based backgrounds behind, while others press forward into a deeper understanding of their faith and purpose. Both of those approaches requires personal decisions to be made. I know alot of great well balanced kids who DEFINATELY have their own opinions, and who happen to be beleivers like I am.

what I'm suggesting to you is that its hard to take a bunch of young children, read scripture to them, and expect them to be good little mindless zombies well into their adult years. it just doesent work that way.

structure and idealism are molded into children i agree with that but im talking about religion. im going to use myself as an example because i challanged how i was brought up religiously (something that i do not notice most children doing and no im not talking about just christianity here) from the time i was old enough to not have my mother at my side i was forced into religious classes where all the children were put in a room and read scripture to while the parents were in church. the next thing i know ive got some big goon in a tie with a receding hairline telling me (not asking telling me) i want to be saved, he took my hand and told me to close my eyes where he proceded to pray to god and "save me". mind you at the time i had no idea what was going on. then he gets up and shouts to the children that im saved im saved and takes me to parent church where he proceeds to tell everyone what "i" had just done. everyone clapped and cheered for me altho i had no idea why and the next week they threw me into sparks (a sort of school to teach you to be a "god warrior") and before i knew it they had me spouting of bible verses that honestly meant nothing to me. i would look at a page and memorize the words and then repeat them back but i did the same with storie books at home. i wasnt praising god when i did it, i wasnt even trying to show off how much i loved him. i knew that if i said the words that i had remembered i would get a cookie and a pat on the head like a good little doggie. by that summer they had me baptized because thats obviously what i wanted (meaning they asked me if i wanted to go swimming and i said ok). on top of all this from the time i was in daycare till 6th grade i was shoved into a christian school where the same things were done to me (and hundreds of other kids) every single day. when it got to the point where i refused (meaning i told my parents that if they sent me back to that school another year i would run away or kill myself) they sent me to a public school where i was finaly able to let my opinions be heard without getting slapped or beat for it, and let me tell you that to this day im one of maybe 3 from the school or church that i know of who are freely thinking and making their own opinions. even know that i am old enough tho i still cannot freely tell my dad (who was mainly the reason i was put in such a religious position) what i truly am or what i truly believe in.

that to me is forced, and at no time, not even know, am i allowed to show that ive formed my own opinions. it may be harsh but for a lot of children its the truth, ive grown up with it, ive lived it, ive seen hundreds of others that are still living it because they are to scared, or closed off to do anything else, it was never about personal opinion. again im not trying to say this only happens with christianity, this is only my first hand experience and thats what it happens to be.

sorry to tell you but it does work that way.

[Guest Game of Chance]

structure and idealism are molded into children i agree with that but im talking about religion. im going to use myself as an example because i challanged how i was brought up religiously (something that i do not notice most children doing and no im not talking about just christianity here) from the time i was old enough to not have my mother at my side i was forced into religious classes where all the children were put in a room and read scripture to while the parents were in church. the next thing i know ive got some big goon in a tie with a receding hairline telling me (not asking telling me) i want to be saved, he took my hand and told me to close my eyes where he proceded to pray to god and "save me". mind you at the time i had no idea what was going on. then he gets up and shouts to the children that im saved im saved and takes me to parent church where he proceeds to tell everyone what "i" had just done. everyone clapped and cheered for me altho i had no idea why and the next week they threw me into sparks (a sort of school to teach you to be a "god warrior") and before i knew it they had me spouting of bible verses that honestly meant nothing to me. i would look at a page and memorize the words and then repeat them back but i did the same with storie books at home. i wasnt praising god when i did it, i wasnt even trying to show off how much i loved him. i knew that if i said the words that i had remembered i would get a cookie and a pat on the head like a good little doggie. by that summer they had me baptized because thats obviously what i wanted (meaning they asked me if i wanted to go swimming and i said ok). on top of all this from the time i was in daycare till 6th grade i was shoved into a christian school where the same things were done to me (and hundreds of other kids) every single day. when it got to the point where i refused (meaning i told my parents that if they sent me back to that school another year i would run away or kill myself) they sent me to a public school where i was finaly able to let my opinions be heard without getting slapped or beat for it, and let me tell you that to this day im one of maybe 3 from the school or church that i know of who are freely thinking and making their own opinions. even know that i am old enough tho i still cannot freely tell my dad (who was mainly the reason i was put in such a religious position) what i truly am or what i truly believe in.

that to me is forced, and at no time, not even know, am i allowed to show that ive formed my own opinions. it may be harsh but for a lot of children its the truth, ive grown up with it, ive lived it, ive seen hundreds of others that are still living it because they are to scared, or closed off to do anything else, it was never about personal opinion. again im not trying to say this only happens with christianity, this is only my first hand experience and thats what it happens to be.

sorry to tell you but it does work that way.

Sorry to hear that you went through all that. That is some fucked up shit.

Too bad about your Dad.

[Gauge]

Sorry to hear that you went through all that. That is some fucked up shit.

Too bad about your Dad.

i lived, i learned, i grew, my past has made me who i am today. its made me a stronger more open minded person and put me on a path to some of the greatest experiences and most amazing people i may ever meet in this life. i guess what im saying is that even tho it sucked i love who i am today and now that its over i wouldnt change it.

my dad is still not ready to open up, when he is i will be here

[Steven]

structure and idealism are molded into children i agree with that but im talking about religion. im going to use myself as an example because i challanged how i was brought up religiously (something that i do not notice most children doing and no im not talking about just christianity here) from the time i was old enough to not have my mother at my side i was forced into religious classes where all the children were put in a room and read scripture to while the parents were in church. the next thing i know ive got some big goon in a tie with a receding hairline telling me (not asking telling me) i want to be saved, he took my hand and told me to close my eyes where he proceded to pray to god and "save me". mind you at the time i had no idea what was going on. then he gets up and shouts to the children that im saved im saved and takes me to parent church where he proceeds to tell everyone what "i" had just done. everyone clapped and cheered for me altho i had no idea why and the next week they threw me into sparks (a sort of school to teach you to be a "god warrior") and before i knew it they had me spouting of bible verses that honestly meant nothing to me. i would look at a page and memorize the words and then repeat them back but i did the same with storie books at home. i wasnt praising god when i did it, i wasnt even trying to show off how much i loved him. i knew that if i said the words that i had remembered i would get a cookie and a pat on the head like a good little doggie. by that summer they had me baptized because thats obviously what i wanted (meaning they asked me if i wanted to go swimming and i said ok). on top of all this from the time i was in daycare till 6th grade i was shoved into a christian school where the same things were done to me (and hundreds of other kids) every single day. when it got to the point where i refused (meaning i told my parents that if they sent me back to that school another year i would run away or kill myself) they sent me to a public school where i was finaly able to let my opinions be heard without getting slapped or beat for it, and let me tell you that to this day im one of maybe 3 from the school or church that i know of who are freely thinking and making their own opinions. even know that i am old enough tho i still cannot freely tell my dad (who was mainly the reason i was put in such a religious position) what i truly am or what i truly believe in.

that to me is forced, and at no time, not even know, am i allowed to show that ive formed my own opinions. it may be harsh but for a lot of children its the truth, ive grown up with it, ive lived it, ive seen hundreds of others that are still living it because they are to scared, or closed off to do anything else, it was never about personal opinion. again im not trying to say this only happens with christianity, this is only my first hand experience and thats what it happens to be.

sorry to tell you but it does work that way.

listen babe - i went thru the exact same thing as a Jehovah's witness. I got beatings to go along with alll thestuff too, because I questioned things. I know it (the abuse) exists, so I apologize if I came off sounding flippant - wasent my intention.

But here's the thing - I've seen the other side fro many years now, many more than what I expereinced as a child, and it too - exists. Its credible and healthy in my opinion, and i know these kids. In fact tis many of these same kids that started my "turnaround" if you will, into considering that perhaps there really is soemthign out there....

So....I have to choose which one to place more faith in, the dogmatic opressive side, or the relational side.

Cool?

[Steven]

forgot to add incidently, that my Father does not include me at his table.

nor does half of my family, including a younger brother, because I am what they consider to be an "Apostate" - because I turned away from their beleif system and went after one of my own.

When I was a drug addict i was the convenient family dirtbag.

When I became a "Christian" however - I became in theior eyes somethign much worse.

[Gauge]

listen babe - i went thru the exact same thing as a Jehovah's witness. I got beatings to go along with alll thestuff too, because I questioned things. I know it (the abuse) exists, so I apologize if I came off sounding flippant - wasent my intention.

But here's the thing - I've seen the other side fro many years now, many more than what I expereinced as a child, and it too - exists. Its credible and healthy in my opinion, and i know these kids. In fact tis many of these same kids that started my "turnaround" if you will, into considering that perhaps there really is soemthign out there....

So....I have to choose which one to place more faith in, the dogmatic opressive side, or the relational side.

Cool?

But is it really healthy? how do you know that the younger generation your looking at isnt beeing treated the same way and going through the same shit, especially in the situation where they may not believe? the ones that do believe seem healthy because they arent challenging whats beeing taught to them. are you also seeing the kids that go home after church or school crying because they have no one to go to or went to someone they thought they could get comfort from that brushed them off or abused them? the ones that question what they are beeing taught? it would seem much of america (and for that matter other countries as well) has taken what theyve been tought from christianity and either blindly followed it to their adulthood or researched it and discovered its right for them, but why force it on them when they cant make decisions on what they believe for themselves?

I dont want you to think im attacking you on this or anything but right now i dont see how you could believe that christianity isnt beeing forced on our youth.

[Gauge]

double post >.<

Edited September 18, 2006 by Gauge

[Steven]

well, let me try to answer that.....

you mentioned christian school.

my wife worked in a private christian school in california for many years.

I also worked there part time.

I knew the staff, the teachers, the culture of the place, but most important I knew the parents and the children. Out of that staff - I knew only one teacher who was too much, insisted upon too much, basically did it very wrong. Her students did not dig her. Now, she and I are friends, and she lives in my old house, and she knows i do not agree with her methods. Her roomate was also a teacher there and was her polar opposite and is also a close friend with Laura and I. This Christian teacher had Tattoos. Short bleached blonde hair. Rode a motorcycle. Smoked cigarettes. Brilliant girl- her students loved her.

So...which teacher was the real Christian? Real Christian Teacher please stand up.

My God Daughter went to elementary and Jr High school there, and Laura and I were best friends with her parents. Marcie (my god daughter) and I are very close. She's in her mid 20's now. And she's a Goth (suprise).

Marcie made up her mind in her teens that she does not agree with what she was taught. She has always been very indipendent and extremely bright. Nobody forced her into anything, especially her faith. When she grew uncomfortable, her parents took her out of the school and put her in the public school system. He sister stayed in Christian school, because she wanted to. Her Brother never went to christian school. For while there she got a little wild. Hung out with people I didint dig, the exact same kinds of peopel that I hung out with when I was her age. And from time to time as she approached her twenties, she'd call me and ask me to take her to church with me, long after she'd left all of that behind. Why she wanted to do that is up to her. I assume she was/is sorting things out on her own. I never pressed her to tell me why, and I never pressured her to come back. My relationship with her never required a performance quota. When she was a little girl and I used to babysit her, she'd ask me lots of questions about God. When she got older and we'd sit at the coffee house and smoke cigarettes she'd ask me many questions about God and ME, and why, and why not, and all I ever told her was anything she would ask. All of it, good and bad, she knows about me. She knows my past as well. But she was always safe to aske me anything, and she still is.

Marcie by the way, when she was a kid of about 6, was a large part of what started cracking my anti-christian shell. She was one of many kids who had that effect on me. She went her way, as she should. Her peers made up their minds too. I know alot of those kids, who are nto really kids anymore. Most of them are pretty amazing. quite a few of them, are still Christians. Some of them are leaders. Some of them are missionaires. Some fo them are just reglar joes. all of it is good.

I'll go back to that teacher that I admit was too forceful.

Why did she have that power to remain the way that she was? Why did some kids get hurt by her?

because their PARENTS - did not challenge her. Or the system.

Marcie by the way, was in her class.

Its the job of the Parents to keep watch and protect those kids.

And its the jobof this teacher, this person, to humble herself and be willing to listen.

If she fails to do this, then her ability to do harm can be easily acheived: pull the kids out. Statement made.

Parents are you listening? Or are you too busy? Will the real loving parents please stand up?

Here's something else to consider: many of those parents who sent their kids to Christian school - just did it for the educational benefits. Those parents were not are not active beleivers. They dont know a thing about teh Bible, or Jesus, or care to know. Did they make a wise choice? To place that child in a system they do not really accept or even understand themselves? And how do you go about policing a system that you yourself do not even understand? Ah yes those kids get good grades and the education is impressive - but you DO REALISE THAT THEY TEACH ABOUT GOD IN THAT SCHOOL RIGHT? And MANY of those parents - stuck their kids in Christian schools because they had social problems. they figured they'd let the God squad and all the card carrying clergy fix their kids, because it was too much hassle for them and the doctor says they need to up their Xanex.

And I know this, because it used to happen to Laura and I. We were known for mentoring kids. Especially the ones with problems. We did that for years. But some of these parents would literally call our house and want us to take their kids to get them babtized because they were acting up. What the fuck is that? Is that real? Who is the real threat here? The chruch or the parents?

Fix my kid, hurry up dammit, this shit is costing me $1500.00 bucks a month, and dont preach to me and dont ask em questions about home life and dont expect me to learn anythign or partner with you just fix my kid and get on with it goddammit.

I've seen alot of that. A whole lot of that. And whats really being forced - are these children - they are being forced to satisfy their parents shallow, self serving, and short sighted goals.

and a side question for balance.... let's say that your kid is in a public school. ANd your kid beleives in God, and creationism. By choice. And that kid is being forced to learn the principles of evolution - to include in the presentation of this subject matter a certain degree of mockery for those who might embrace a creationists ideas. Is that healthy? Because it happens every day.

My point in the end is that ANYTHING can be abused without balance and without involvement.

And anythign can be blamed, again without balance and without involvement.

You've been wounded in your own personal expereince, and so have I. I get that. I also get the anger that goes with it. I lived it. I took beatings for my questions. i am still ostracized to this day by my family because of my questions.

but this failure was a monumental one on the part of my father, not on the part of Christianity. My father USED alleged Chrsitianity - as a controlling device, as a way to hide inside of precepts instead of forcing himself to grow. My Father - failed to invest himself for the benefit of his kids. He instead chose to cling doggedly to soemthing that made HIM feel right and free from judgement. He never considered the end result of what it was doing to his children. He never pusued, fought for,and demanded balance, decency, and order. He never cared.

And he still does not.

And he lives a defeated life. He is a defeated man. But I am not.

I mean no disrespect.

But it seems to me, that your father failed to protect you.

just like my father did.

in the name of Christ. Only Christ himself would never place his name upon or endorse what you sufferred through.

Edited September 18, 2006 by Steven

[sass_in_the_pants]

Children have to be taught religion. Otherwise, what are they going to throw back in their parents' faces when they become teenagers?

[Gauge]

you didnt really answer my question

[Steven]

ok Gauge - I'm going to try one more time to answer, and bear in midn that this is me your talking to, and that the answers I'm about to give you, have been modeled for me....

But is it really healthy?

Answer: Vague question. To oppress a child with religion (or anythign) is NOT healthy. I do not condone this. is it healthy to raise a child in a Christian home and or educate them in a private Christian School? YES. Given that this is done in decency and order, such as with any aspect of child rearing should be done.

how do you know that the younger generation your looking at isnt beeing treated the same way and going through the same shit, especially in the situation where they may not believe?

Answer: Ask them. Watch them. Listen to them. If your home is a healthy one, your child has the ability and is encouraged to speak their mind. They are safe at home, to be themselves. I know lots fo secular kids who dont even have this freedom, perhaps even some fo you. Investigate the source of the Christian education, who is delivering it, how its being delivered, and most important - your childs reaction to it. GET INVOLVED.

What about the ones that do believe seem healthy because they arent challenging whats beeing taught to them.

Answer (in question form): What if your wrong gauge? What if that child is actually happy and secure? What if that child has no challenge within them at this stage in their development? What if that child has some sort of fulfillment from their faith? What if that child actualy has faith? What if your experience is but one part of the whole? Should your expereince be the voice of all? Remember your biblical teaching Gauge...what is the lesson of the Prodigal Son? Was that son's father an opressor or a support system? Did that Father embrace and value his child or use him and devalue him? Think about the lesson - why is it there? And who was the person who that that Lesson Gauge? And who is that lesson for? And does it apply to modern times and modern parents? Think about it.

are you also seeing the kids that go home after church or school crying because they have no one to go to or went to someone they thought they could get comfort from that brushed them off or abused them?

Answer: I allready answered this, YES I have seen it. I was one of them. It is a tragedy. It is a tragedy for exactly that which you stated - they have no one to go to. Is this not the responsibility of the parents and community to provide? Did Christianity cause the parents to vacate their duty? I was one of these kids. And I was one because my father did not care. You were one, because yoru father did not care. I blame our fathers. they could have and should have.....done something. They did not. I do not charge the church with the sins of my Father. those sins, are his to bear.

What about the ones that question what they are being taught?

Answer: again I refer back to responsible parenting. If your child is in turmoil - provide safety. If your child is in a position where they are being harmed due to their unbeleif or unacceptance of what is being presented to them in this environment, then change the environment. Stop the turmoil. If your child instead only needs to be ACCEPTED for this indecision but does not want to make a full fledged change becausethe child needs time to sort things out, then by all means accept and nurture the child. And again remember that I questioned much as a child, and was beaten for it. I get it, trust me.

it would seem much of america (and for that matter other countries as well) has taken what theyve been tought from christianity and either blindly followed it to their adulthood or researched it and discovered its right for them, but why force it on them when they cant make decisions on what they believe for themselves?

Answer: first of all, children CAN make plenty of personal decisions, they do everyday. Regardless of the decisions made, honor the abilities of the child. Never force anything. You cannot force faith, or beleif, ro realtionship for that matter. Remember your biblical teaching gague...how did Christ deal with children?

I dont want you to think im attacking you on this or anything but right now i dont see how you could believe that christianity isnt beeing forced on our youth.

Answer: I HAVE seen it. But en masse, no I have not. Because i have ALSO seen, for many years in many children, the other side. I have also involved myself, with the other side. There IS a negative destructive side Gauge - I do not deny this and we have both experienced it. But there is a healthy and balanced side as well. This too I have seen, and these children I have been in relationship with, i do not make a pop judgement from a distance. I am a Christian. And an adult. And I have been in mentoring situations many times over the years. And this Christian, has never once, forced anything. And this Christian, was taught this sensitivity if you will, from other Christians who likewise never forced anything. People on this website have often referred to my approach being out fo the ordinary. But my approach is for me, very ordinary, as it was taught to me by way of example. There are many people exactly like me. I learned it. Someone had to show me. And I've been doing this for a very long time. We carry with us certain tools that are taught to us. My father taught me opression. Others taught me freedom.

hope that helps.

[Gauge]

Ask them. Watch them. Listen to them. If your home is a healthy one, your child has the ability and is encouraged to speak their mind. They are safe at home, to be themselves. I know lots of secular kids who dont even have this freedom, perhaps even some of you. Investigate the source of the Christian education, who is delivering it, how its being delivered, and most important - your childs reaction to it. GET INVOLVED.

so you dont think that theres a strong possibility that they are going to their parents and the very same thing might be happening there as it does in school/churches?

What if your wrong gauge? What if that child is actually happy and secure? What if that child has no challenge within them at this stage in their development? What if that child has some sort of fulfillment from their faith? What if that child actually has faith? What if your experience is but one part of the whole? Should your experience be the voice of all? Remember your biblical teaching Gauge...what is the lesson of the Prodigal Son? Was that son's father an oppressor or a support system? Did that Father embrace and value his child or use him and devalue him? Think about the lesson - why is it there? And who was the person who that that Lesson Gauge? And who is that lesson for? And does it apply to modern times and modern parents? Think about it.

the question wasnt about children who believe or who are happy and secure, ive already stated before that its possible theyre either blindly following or theyve actually researched it and could be very happy or whatever the case may be and are happy with the decision to become or continue being christian. the real question is towards the other ones. the ones dont believe or are not happy and secure with the idea of christianity or it being forced on them.

I already answered this, YES I have seen it. I was one of them. It is a tragedy. It is a tragedy for exactly that which you stated - they have no one to go to. Is this not the responsibility of the parents and community to provide? Did Christianity cause the parents to vacate their duty? I was one of these kids. And I was one because my father did not care. You were one, because your father did not care. I blame our fathers. they could have and should have.....done something. They did not. I do not charge the church with the sins of my Father. those sins, are his to bear.

but do you see it now? from an adults standpoint? you are the ones (not specifically you but more meaning christian adults) that are now in the position to be doing the forcing (again not saying you are). how do you think your childhood, or my childhood, or any child going through life right now, might have been if your parents (in this case your father) had not been raised christian? i know for a fact that from my side of things if my father had not been forced into religion when he was younger he wouldnt be how he is now.

again I refer back to responsible parenting. If your child is in turmoil - provide safety. If your child is in a position where they are being harmed due to their unbelief or unacceptance of what is being presented to them in this environment, then change the environment. Stop the turmoil. If your child instead only needs to be ACCEPTED for this indecision but does not want to make a full fledged change because the child needs time to sort things out, then by all means accept and nurture the child. And again remember that I questioned much as a child, and was beaten for it. I get it, trust me.

im just going to refer to my point above and add that an overly religious parent dont often see the kind of pain that a child is going through as being unsafe. i know that (again from my experiences) when i would go to my dad about things like that he "knew" that it was gods way of telling him to push harder. its seen as the path that needs to be taken out of sin and into gods arms.

first of all, children CAN make plenty of personal decisions, they do everyday. Regardless of the decisions made, honor the abilities of the child. Never force anything. You cannot force faith, or belief, or relationship for that matter. Remember your biblical teaching gague...how did Christ deal with children?

i realize that children are quite intelligent and can make their own decisions but how can you expect a child (most children anyway) to make an informed decision when all theyve probably ever known is that god is love and if you follow him he will save you and on and on and on. "Never force anything" thats what ive been trying to get across is that it is being forced it CAN be forced.

I HAVE seen it. But en masse, no I have not. Because i have ALSO seen, for many years in many children, the other side. I have also involved myself, with the other side. There IS a negative destructive side Gauge - I do not deny this and we have both experienced it. But there is a healthy and balanced side as well. This too I have seen, and these children I have been in relationship with, i do not make a pop judgement from a distance. I am a Christian. And an adult. And I have been in mentoring situations many times over the years. And this Christian, has never once, forced anything. And this Christian, was taught this sensitivity if you will, from other Christians who likewise never forced anything. People on this website have often referred to my approach being out fo the ordinary. But my approach is for me, very ordinary, as it was taught to me by way of example. There are many people exactly like me. I learned it. Someone had to show me. And I've been doing this for a very long time. We carry with us certain tools that are taught to us. My father taught me oppression. Others taught me freedom.

im not saying that you personally have forced your religion on anyone and maybe the group of people you know of havnt either but from what ive seen, personal or not, that is not the norm.