[Raev]

Some people are just naturally charismatic, interesting, attractive, smart and confident.

......
......

Then there are the rest of us.

Now, I'm no expert on breaking the ice or striking up conversation with a party I'm interested in. So, lets all share some advice?

Ladies - what advice do you have for the guys?
Guys - do we even need to advice ladies?

Now, this first piece of advice goes for both genders.

WALK WITH CONFIDENCE.
Even if you don't feel it, CARRY yourself like you are amazing. Self esteem and confidence goes a LONG way. Evey if you don't believe it, walk proud. Walk like you own the real estate your feet touch. Walk like if you were to unzip your pants, a red cape with an S would fall out. Be confident. NOT cocky. Confident. Trust me, it can go a long way.

[Raev]

GUYS -
Ok, I know a lot of females. 75% of my friends are women. A lot of them are either city clubbers or used to be. I've heard a similar complaint from just about all of them. Lets address it, shall we?

If you see a lass sitting by herself, don't assume she is lonely or needs saved.

See that girl on the bench? Looking down and by herself? She just MIGHT be looking for something she dropped. Or she is sitting by herself because she wants to be. Maybe her friends/sig other went to the bathroom (gods bless them and keep them safe). Perhaps she's sad. Perhaps she's angry. Doesn't matter.

Watch the body language first.

Signs that she may be approachable?
1-caught staring at you and doesn't look away + smiles. Pretty easy one to read.
2-keeps glancing over at you "subtlety". Lets face it, if they want us to know they are looking - we will pick up on it.

Signs to leave alone?
1-Arms are crossed. Bad sign body language wise.
2-Clenched teeth. Balled fists. Wobbling. She's either drunk or pissed. Leave alone!

Just wait for her body language to suggest something of an invitation.

Side note - don't stare. That's creepy.

Side note to the side note - this extends to the dance floor. Not every woman wants to be danced with by every sausage in the place. Wait for friendly body language.
(ps, if she is dancing with 'high elbows' she wants to be left alone to just dance)

[phee]

My advice.... Okay I have no advice at all.... I am just lucky to be with who I am... I seemed to attract the attention of a wonderful person by simply being myself. Then she saw my band play, and the attention turned even more affectionate. I still to this day have no technique or way that I go about talking to women.

In the past basically all I can say is (and this is NOT GOOD ADVICE) basically when I was so pissed off at something that I literally didn't care if girls looked at me or not, strangely enough that seemed to be when women seemed to notice me... when I didn't give a Fuck.

[creatureofthenyte]

phee, on 09 February 2010 - 05:42 PM, said:

In the past basically all I can say is (and this is NOT GOOD ADVICE) basically when I was so pissed off at something that I literally didn't care if girls looked at me or not, strangely enough that seemed to be when women seemed to notice me... when I didn't give a Fuck.

I can identify with these feelings somewhat, and I am not proud of that by any means.



IMO, there shouldn't have to be any special "technique" in talking to women; just be yourself and open your mouth, speak, and let what happens happen.

If you meet someone, and you feel that you Can't be yourself around that person, then they are not for you.

[Rev.Reverence]

phee, on 09 February 2010 - 05:42 PM, said:

My advice.... Okay I have no advice at all.... I am just lucky to be with who I am... I seemed to attract the attention of a wonderful person by simply being myself. Then she saw my band play, and the attention turned even more affectionate. I still to this day have no technique or way that I go about talking to women.

In the past basically all I can say is (and this is NOT GOOD ADVICE) basically when I was so pissed off at something that I literally didn't care if girls looked at me or not, strangely enough that seemed to be when women seemed to notice me... when I didn't give a Fuck.

...& it can be hard, to not care...

[Black Jack]

This area is give in go as far as I am concerned. Anyone I have ever talked to was based on truth that alone has its ups and downs but it goes alone way if you looking for that special someone. Nor is being a jerk all round will ever get you the attention you want if any and my jerk I mean physically and verbally these type of people eventually get there just deserts. I for one always act as if the person with whom I speak that we knew each other or vice-versa. Time after time it gets better although I am not looking for a significant other the things I did and said up to this point does and will matter when that time does come. So relax be yourself and have fun. Note to thread talking not sacking.

[Raev]

"Be yourself" sounds well and good.....

"Don't give a fuck" well now, as much as I hate to admit it...
...I find that when I'm storming through City with my mohawk up and just not giving a shit one way or another about anything - I get hit on DRAMATICALLY more.

Ladies, perhaps you can share why that is?

I'm more thinking of the subtitles of the initial moments. That first impression. Lets face it, we don't go out to clubs/events etc the same way we sit around at home when depressed. We are being ourselves both ways though

I'm more thinking that some of us (self included at times) need a little knowledge. What do we think is clever that women hate? Hence bringing up the "dance floor/bench" etiquette

One thing that makes me sad when dealing with women, is when they give in too quickly. Put it all on the table from jump. Being flirty is well and good but there is a fine line. Perhaps I'm different...but I am an advocate of "leave him wanting more".

It's not a race. Take some time and enjoy.

This post has been edited by Raev: 09 February 2010 - 06:36 PM

[phee]

Raev, on 09 February 2010 - 06:30 PM, said:

"Be yourself" sounds well and good.
Some people being themselves scares people off though and they have no idea why.

It also isn't really much for advice, to "be yourself". The vast majority of people ARE being themselves. That only kind of fits the spirit of the thread

One thing that makes me sad when dealing with women, is when they give in too quickly. Put it all on the table from jump. Being flirty is well and good but there is a fine line. Perhaps I'm different...but I am an advocate of "leave him wanting more".

It's not a race. Take some time and enjoy.

I would agree... "be yourself" is sort of generic... but a lot of people's "selves" really REALLY want a girl to have affection for them... The difference for me was not a matter of being myself or not... it was when I stopped caring if girls wanted me or not (that part of the "self" was gone on those occasions) seemed strangely to be the primary times when girls took an interest... it is ironic is it not?

[creatureofthenyte]

Raev, on 09 February 2010 - 06:30 PM, said:

"Be yourself" sounds well and good.....

"Don't give a fuck" well now, as much as I hate to admit it...
...I find that when I'm storming through City with my mohawk up and just not giving a shit one way or another about anything - I get hit on DRAMATICALLY more.

Ladies, perhaps you can share why that is?

I'm more thinking of the subtitles of the initial moments. That first impression. Lets face it, we don't go out to clubs/events etc the same way we sit around at home when depressed. We are being ourselves both ways though

I'm more thinking that some of us (self included at times) need a little knowledge. What do we think is clever that women hate? Hence bringing up the "dance floor/bench" etiquette

One thing that makes me sad when dealing with women, is when they give in too quickly. Put it all on the table from jump. Being flirty is well and good but there is a fine line. Perhaps I'm different...but I am an advocate of "leave him wanting more".

It's not a race. Take some time and enjoy.

Very good points indeed.

It would certainly be nice to have a "heads up" on things like that.
It can be 50/50 that knowledge you were referring to; what is clever and works with one woman, may piss off someone else.

I'm all for removing as much complication from the situation as humanly possible.
Which is why I spoke about being yourself.

If you're being yourself, and you "scare" someone away, perhaps she wasn't someone that would be good with you.


If you have to pretend to be someone other then yourself, that can lead to alot of other pretending about stuff and things, and the other person may end up Never knowing the Real You.

The one that you meet, that there is mutual attraction between the both of you, and more notably, the one who gets to know/see the Real You.......

and Doesn't "run away", that is the one to be with.


Yeah okay...where is this wonder-person ? Beats the fuck out of me I dunnno

[phee]

You know if they are not pressing charges... they must have seen something in you.... that's the ticket.

[pomba gira]

Don't start the conversation by telling me how hot I am
Don't be creepy
Don't be needy or whiny
Don't be grabby
Don't be drunkenly incoherent
Don't start bitching about your ex

Be confident
Be polite
Smile
Watch my nonverbals (70% of communication!) as we talk, and respond appropriately

And buy me a fucking drink!!! Christ on a crutch, don't you kiddies do that anymore?

Raev, on 09 February 2010 - 06:30 PM, said:

"Don't give a fuck" well now, as much as I hate to admit it...
...I find that when I'm storming through City with my mohawk up and just not giving a shit one way or another about anything - I get hit on DRAMATICALLY more.

Ladies, perhaps you can share why that is?

'Cos it means I prolly won't have to do all the work... and you aren't likely to be clingy & needy or creepy. And in that mode you are radiating intensity, which a lot of us are strongly attracted to.

[Tyger]

These are of course all my opinions.

I like a man with confidence. If he cant walk threw the room with his chin held high than somethings off. Its ok to stumble a bit, of course your nervous (sometimes) but don't draw blanks on your conversations.

I agree with the dance floor comment. I hate having random guys to the "party boy" dance up to me. Its nice to have a guy come up at the beginning of a song and ask. Ive had it happen twice and it is a nice surprise.

I like it when the man comes up first. Not with a cheesy first liner, but something nice.



Id also like to put in, that a club is not the only place to look for someone to date. Maybe approach someone that appeals to you at the grocery store, or when you go out to grab something from the corner store.

[torn asunder]

Raev, on 09 February 2010 - 05:24 PM, said:

Now, I'm no expert on breaking the ice or striking up conversation with a party I'm interested in. So, lets all share some advice?

this is what i took to be the main premise of this thread, and it feels like maybe it was missed a bit. i know a lot of people who are really great, but nobody finds out because it's hard for them to start conversations. this is my issue as well - i'm fine once i'm in a convo, but where to/how to start one is difficult.

Raev, on 09 February 2010 - 05:24 PM, said:

WALK WITH CONFIDENCE.
Even if you don't feel it, CARRY yourself like you are amazing. Self esteem and confidence goes a LONG way. Evey if you don't believe it, walk proud. Walk like you own the real estate your feet touch. Walk like if you were to unzip your pants, a red cape with an S would fall out. Be confident. NOT cocky. Confident. Trust me, it can go a long way.

question - with body language, what's the difference between confident and cocky? or for that matter, confident and aloof/standoffish, or distant, or uninterested, etc.?

my advice for women is to not assume the subtle hints you're dropping, either verbally or through body language, are being perceived. many guys are dumb as a bag of hammers when it comes to reading these things, so be obvious if you're into someone. you may think you're being ridiculously transparent, but most guys won't see it unless you actually *are*. (or is that just me!?)

[*Siren*]

I have a few things to add to the list of things NOT to do:

1. Saying "Hey baby" and grabbing me by the bum/cans/crotch is NOTan acceptable ice breaker! If you don't even know my name, why are you touching me? You won't like my response.

2. If you try touch me and I threaten you with bodily harm I am NOT playing hard to get and this DOES NOT translate to "Try harder, A-hole" so do us both a favor and make yourself scarce. You're not getting any!

3. This one is for the ladies: Can I please have one night at CC where I don't get groped by complete strangers in the ladies room who don't even ask for my consent to do so? I'm in the can for one reason only, and guess what? You aren't it! So for future reference, if you see me bouncing up and down in line in the bathroom, this is not a mating dance, it's the pee pee dance. Let me urinate in peace.

[StormKnight]

torn asunder, on 09 February 2010 - 07:51 PM, said:

my advice for women is to not assume the subtle hints you're dropping, either verbally or through body language, are being perceived. many guys are dumb as a bag of hammers when it comes to reading these things, so be obvious if you're into someone. you may think you're being ridiculously transparent, but most guys won't see it unless you actually *are*. (or is that just me!?)

To this end, Women: sometimes a slap upside the head, up to and including the use of clubs or 2x4's while saying "I like you" is in order. Be blatantly obvious. This is especially for those of us who are illiterate in social body language. (Physical ailment body language and gaits I can peg, thank you. But the whole social body thing, other side of the Clue-Meter.)

[Rev.Reverence]

StormKnight, on 09 February 2010 - 08:37 PM, said:

To this end, Women: sometimes a slap upside the head, up to and including the use of clubs or 2x4's while saying "I like you" is in order. Be blatantly obvious. This is especially for those of us who are illiterate in social body language. (Physical ailment body language and gaits I can peg, thank you. But the whole social body thing, other side of the Clue-Meter.)

Meditate on your animal self...quit 'beating your Id into submission'...Chicks dig Id.
(Note: the use of a period.)

[*Siren*]

torn asunder, on 09 February 2010 - 07:51 PM, said:

question - with body language, what's the difference between confident and cocky? or for that matter, confident and aloof/standoffish, or distant, or uninterested, etc.?

my advice for women is to not assume the subtle hints you're dropping, either verbally or through body language, are being perceived. many guys are dumb as a bag of hammers when it comes to reading these things, so be obvious if you're into someone. you may think you're being ridiculously transparent, but most guys won't see it unless you actually *are*. (or is that just me!?)

Read this again:

Raev, on 09 February 2010 - 05:30 PM, said:

Signs that she may be approachable?
1-caught staring at you and doesn't look away + smiles. Pretty easy one to read.
2-keeps glancing over at you "subtlety". Lets face it, if they want us to know they are looking - we will pick up on it.

Signs to leave alone?
1-Arms are crossed. Bad sign body language wise.
2-Clenched teeth. Balled fists. Wobbling. She's either drunk or pissed. Leave alone!

Just wait for her body language to suggest something of an invitation.

Side note - don't stare. That's creepy.

Side note to the side note - this extends to the dance floor. Not every woman wants to be danced with by every sausage in the place. Wait for friendly body language.
(ps, if she is dancing with 'high elbows' she wants to be left alone to just dance)

[torn asunder]

*Siren*, on 09 February 2010 - 08:44 PM, said:

Read this again:

sorry - the body language question wasn't related to women, it was related to how men hold themselves confidently without coming across negatively, as it's been brought to my attention that i always come across as too indimidating/unapproachable...

[Msterbeau]

torn asunder, on 09 February 2010 - 07:51 PM, said:

my advice for women is to not assume the subtle hints you're dropping, either verbally or through body language, are being perceived. many guys are dumb as a bag of hammers when it comes to reading these things, so be obvious if you're into someone. you may think you're being ridiculously transparent, but most guys won't see it unless you actually *are*. (or is that just me!?)

Absolutely agreed.

It's 2010 ladies. It's long past time for you to ask for what you're interested in having directly. I'm sure there's some genetic/gender stuff that makes the indirect approach seem natural. Cut it out. If you're interested, BE INTERESTED and show it directly. Personally, I find it a turn on and it makes both our lives easier because if I'm interested too, you'll get the response you want much more quickly.

On to other stuff:

The confidence thing is absolutely true and applies both ways. That said, I can think of people that are generally confident, polite and generally act appropriately with the opposite sex yet have a horrible track record with them. I'm not sure I can identify the intangible that they possess that keeps them from attaining the object of their desire.

I find it hard to disagree with the idea that just doing your thing and not actively pursuing has a way of drawing attention. I have a drink or three, I dance, I talk with friends a bit. If I haven't shown up with someone, this is what I'm doing and why I'm at the club. I have a pretty reasonable track record of being hit on in some way or another when I'm there, and I imagine that it's in part because of just doing my thing.

I'd like to point out something that happens to me that I find incredibly annoying if I've just started to talk with someone or met them for the first time from here and I'm dancing or having conversation with them at the club. A friend will come along and insert themselves into the situation and actively flirt with the person I'm with. I don't think they mean to try and pry them away from me, just having a little fun, but under those particular circumstances,( A new person - not an established relationship or friendship) it's rude and inconsiderate. So my advice here is: be mindful of situations like this and give the person room to let something develop.

[Slogo]

Yeah be pretty direct.

This is me between :55-1:45



That is how i think

[Raev]

Torn-
Confident I would describe as...
Head held high, shoulders straight, a slight smile, an even gate, speaking clearly, not being afraid to be a little silly.

Cocky is when you start trying to sell yourself as being better than X Y or Z when it comes to A B or C.

It's ok to believe you look good and have something to offer. Cocky comes in when you start talking to the other person like you have more to offer than they do.

I'm not sure I'm explaining it well. Argh. Hehe.

[Raev]

OH!

Ladies. Gentleman.
STOP WITH THE WHOLE "so-and-so is out of my league" CRAP! ARGH!

Drives me crazy.

Damn near girl I've dated, I've firmly believed was MUCH better looking than I.
Also more interesting than I.
Every one of them has said the same thing when it came to what attracted them to me.
"You were able to hold meaningful conversation with me and make me laugh"

Ladies. Gents.
Personality > Looks

Now, don't get me wrong. Physical attraction is important. I just think it's about 1/3 of the deal. The other 2/3 is the personality. As for people who believe that the physical aspect is 100% of the deal.../nothanks. Too shallow for me, personally

This kind of ties back to confidence. Be confident in your ability to captivate your audience. Relax. Let a song with a good groove to it flow through your head, if you need to. Don't captivate that one? It's ok. Don't fret. It isn't the end of the world.

The SE Michigan region has roughly 4,425,110 people in it according to the census bureaus 2008 estimate. Soo...really...within 45 minutes of you my dear reader, is a couple million people within the sexual orientation of your preference. Don't fret. You've only met a handful of them, really. You can't meet them though, if you don't get out and about! If you need to use that piece of knowledge to keep you feeling confident, then by all means do so. "So this one didn't give a damn or didn't have chemistry. Not like there is a shortage of people!".

Hrm, I'm ranting now aren't I?

[torn asunder]

Raev, on 09 February 2010 - 10:06 PM, said:

Torn-
Confident I would describe as...
Head held high, shoulders straight, a slight smile, an even gate, speaking clearly, not being afraid to be a little silly.

Cocky is when you start trying to sell yourself as being better than X Y or Z when it comes to A B or C.

It's ok to believe you look good and have something to offer. Cocky comes in when you start talking to the other person like you have more to offer than they do.

I'm not sure I'm explaining it well. Argh. Hehe.

so in your view, cocky isn't related to body language, but verbal?

and here's a question i have for anyone... how do you justify walking around with a smile on your face, when you're not talking to/with anyone? i can see smiling for a reason, but smiling for *no* reason seems really silly to me, like "how sweet to be an idiot" silly.

[Raev]

I can address both of those questions, Torn.

First - cocky is 75% verbal I'd say. 25% comes in with rolling of eyes, looking down on someone, giving looks of "yeah - as if". Even if it's intended for one person - everyone nearby can see it.

As for smiling....I smile almost all day long. Not a giant grin, just a slight smile. Why do I have a slight smile? I'm generally happy. Happy to be alive, happy to see another day, happy to be near friends, happy that I am healthy....just generally happy. So, I normally have a slight smile to me.

[torn asunder]

Raev, on 09 February 2010 - 10:33 PM, said:

I can address both of those questions, Torn.

First - cocky is 75% verbal I'd say. 25% comes in with rolling of eyes, looking down on someone, giving looks of "yeah - as if". Even if it's intended for one person - everyone nearby can see it.

As for smiling....I smile almost all day long. Not a giant grin, just a slight smile. Why do I have a slight smile? I'm generally happy. Happy to be alive, happy to see another day, happy to be near friends, happy that I am healthy....just generally happy. So, I normally have a slight smile to me.

see, i don't get that. maybe i've just never been happy enough for it to show!? i dunno, just doesn't feel natural to me. thanks for the reply!

[Eevee]

phee, on 09 February 2010 - 05:42 PM, said:

My advice.... Okay I have no advice at all.... I am just lucky to be with who I am... I seemed to attract the attention of a wonderful person by simply being myself. Then she saw my band play, and the attention turned even more affectionate. I still to this day have no technique or way that I go about talking to women.

I was honestly fairly flattered by you at the last DGN night when you complimented me. It took me off guard, but it was seriously a highlight of my night...probably partially because I wasn't expecting it.

pomba gira, on 09 February 2010 - 07:20 PM, said:

Don't start the conversation by telling me how hot I am
Don't be creepy
Don't be needy or whiny
Don't be grabby
Don't be drunkenly incoherent
Don't start bitching about your ex

Be confident
Be polite
Smile

I agree with all these.
I honestly don't mean to...but I've been told by multiple people that when I dance at the club, I seem unapproachable. Like I don't want to be danced with. And, really, I often don't want to be danced with. I get asked every time I'm at CC (less often at Necto) to dance and 99% of the time I kindly refuse.
Generally I like when a guy just smiles. Not creepy stare. But a smile. Or an interested glance, even (mysterious... ). And if I can chat with him and get more smiles or laughs. And as long as he respects my personal space unless I make it obvious he can touch me...which I would probably show by touching his arm or something.

I'm trying to think of other things...I'll need to probably come back to this, haha!

[pomba gira]

Rev.Reverence, on 09 February 2010 - 08:39 PM, said:

Meditate on your animal self...quit 'beating your Id into submission'...Chicks dig Id.
(Note: the use of a period.)

Sound advice.

torn asunder, on 09 February 2010 - 09:01 PM, said:

sorry - the body language question wasn't related to women, it was related to how men hold themselves confidently without coming across negatively, as it's been brought to my attention that i always come across as too indimidating/unapproachable...

Smile, dammit! I have the same problem... and I have to remind myself constantly to put on a friendly/approachable expression. Doesn't have to be a shit-eating grin... but softening your facial expression will convey that you're actually interested in other people. Practice in front of the mirror if you need to!

[Joey Deadcat]

Don't approach or talk to anyone - just lean against the wall, alone,cigarette in hand, gazing at the floor lost in thoughts or staring, forlornly, at the ceiling. Be strong and silent but with a hint of vulnerability.

Or

Sit at the end of a bar, alone, cigarette, lost in thoughts, indifferent to your surroundings, slight look of indignation on your face. Be strong and silent.

Or

Stand in the middle of a room, alone, cigarette in mouth, hands in pockets, eyes scanning your surroundings with an ambiguous look about you. Be dark and mysterious.

[Tyger]

*Siren*, on 09 February 2010 - 08:36 PM, said:

3. This one is for the ladies: Can I please have one night at CC where I don't get groped by complete strangers in the ladies room who don't even ask for my consent to do so? I'm in the can for one reason only, and guess what? You aren't it! So for future reference, if you see me bouncing up and down in line in the bathroom, this is not a mating dance, it's the pee pee dance. Let me urinate in peace.

This is very true.

[*Siren*]

Tyger, on 10 February 2010 - 07:08 AM, said:

This is very true.

This happens to you too?

[phee]

Eevee, on 09 February 2010 - 11:28 PM, said:

I was honestly fairly flattered by you at the last DGN night when you complimented me. It took me off guard, but it was seriously a highlight of my night...probably partially because I wasn't expecting it.

Well you also probably knew it was honest, and most importantly that I didn't want anything from you...


In my observation if someone in a club setting is complimenting another.... usually they want something.....

[Msterbeau]

phee, on 10 February 2010 - 09:31 AM, said:

Well you also probably knew it was honest, and most importantly that I didn't want anything from you...


In my observation if someone in a club setting is complimenting another.... usually they want something.....

I want my head rubbed.

[Tyger]

*Siren*, on 10 February 2010 - 08:46 AM, said:

This happens to you too?

There was this one time, someone got pretty close to doing it.

But I think it shouldnt just be in the bathrooms... Ive have it happen to me at other places too.

[Tyger]

Msterbeau, on 10 February 2010 - 09:37 AM, said:

I want my head rubbed.

~rubs head~

[Msterbeau]

Tyger, on 10 February 2010 - 09:48 AM, said:

~rubs head~

*Purrs*

[kat]

creatureofthenyte, on 09 February 2010 - 06:53 PM, said:

Very good points indeed.

It would certainly be nice to have a "heads up" on things like that.
It can be 50/50 that knowledge you were referring to; what is clever and works with one woman, may piss off someone else.

I'm all for removing as much complication from the situation as humanly possible.
Which is why I spoke about being yourself.

If you're being yourself, and you "scare" someone away, perhaps she wasn't someone that would be good with you.


If you have to pretend to be someone other then yourself, that can lead to alot of other pretending about stuff and things, and the other person may end up Never knowing the Real You.

The one that you meet, that there is mutual attraction between the both of you, and more notably, the one who gets to know/see the Real You.......

and Doesn't "run away", that is the one to be with.


Yeah okay...where is this wonder-person ? Beats the fuck out of me I dunnno

I agree with this statement so I could not resist quoting it. Anyhow, yeah if someone does not accept you for YOU, holistically, than they are not the person intended for you to be with.

[Msterbeau]

creatureofthenyte, on 09 February 2010 - 06:53 PM, said:

If you're being yourself, and you "scare" someone away, perhaps she wasn't someone that would be good with you.

I missed this.. a very good point indeed.

I have online dating profiles up in a few places. I'm very particular about how I describe myself because I want to attract the right kind of person. There's absolutely no point in being something you're not if you have any intentions of having a long term relationship with the person you approach.

[Raev]

phee, on 09 February 2010 - 06:36 PM, said:

I would agree... "be yourself" is sort of generic...

^

[creatureofthenyte]

Msterbeau, on 10 February 2010 - 10:26 AM, said:

There's absolutely no point in being something you're not if you have any intentions of having a long term relationship with the person you approach.

Raev,

This is the thought I was previously trying to convey about being yourself.

[*Siren*]

Msterbeau, on 10 February 2010 - 09:37 AM, said:

I want my head rubbed.

Which one?