How Do We Feel About Illegal Immigrants?

[phee]

I admit that I really don't have any clear idea about this issue... it is cloudy to me on so many personal and cultural levels...

[Rev.Reverence]

They are not mutually exclusive ideas.

I belong to the land in northern Michigan.

I'll don;t want people from other lands "invading" and taking that land.

You don;t want to admit it. You being the populace in genreal.. but we are at war with Mexico. A good portion of those people that come over the border and a good portion of the ones that don;t think the whole south west is part of Mexico and are activly trying to take it back.

You letting them

It WAS...

[Stymie]

We belong to it. Meaning there are natural laws that we live by. Odder and chaos. People dieing in what ever world. Natural selection. Even when man steps in natural selection still finds away.

Laws are placed to help keep "Odder" and people safe.

I am part Native Americian too. It sickens me how people treated part of my blood. And Illegal aleins are no different. In hurting our land in every way. (You work someplace and pay no taxes and put almost 0 back. It will hurt the lifes of every person stays here.) I will not stand for it. My blood that came from across the sea. Did it by legal means.

When you lost your job to some jack ass that gets 2.50.... Now you can fucking talk!!

[freydis]

And as far as the whole Australia thing goes...... if you immigrate to a new country, and then refuse to acknowledge youself as a citizen of that country (and acknowledge all of the responsibilities that come with it, such as an oath of fealty), don't whine when they want you to leave. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. You want to live there and enjoy all the rights a citizen has? Then do what all the rest of the citizens have to do. As a soverign country, they have every right to ask it of their citizens.

[phee]

And as far as the whole Australia thing goes...... if you immigrate to a new country, and then refuse to acknowledge youself as a citizen of that country (and acknowledge all of the responsibilities that come with it, such as an oath of fealty), don't whine when they want you to leave. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. You want to live there and enjoy all the rights a citizen has? Then do what all the rest of the citizens have to do. As a soverign country, they have every right to ask it of their citizens.

+1

[Hellion]

Just a note,Not everyone who is white is guilty,(ps.this post is about, outside of the DGN board)my family moved here well after all the bs the government did to the natives, Never will I be happy about what they did!!I have several native american friends that would agree that not every white person is at fault,my aunt has even stated that there is some native american in our family,just a small percentage,when it comes to Thanksgiving,its only celebrated for family and friends,for good health and well being, not Plymouth Rock!

at least Gen Custer got "custered"

Its amazing when you get your history lessons from trusted individuals than the text books.nough said

[celestial]

Im not trying to start a race argument. It has nothing to do with that, the point is instead of helping these people who ever it may be we bash them and basically think of them as a common criminal. America is a country based off a new beginning and it is no ones place to deny anyone a better life style no matter how they came to be here. Some of these people don't have the money to pay the fees of the countless forms. Grats to those who may have come to America when all you had to do was show up and they gave you an identity but to say im here and i have the means and its to bad you don't so go away is crazy. I just went to a march on mayday for workers rights and pro immigration and the turnout was enormous. To deny people the American way of life is to basicaly take every war America has faught especially world war 2 and say hey, we want to demonstrate out military power and western way of life but keep your dirty @^^ in your own country and do what you do there, as long as its western we will consider you civilized from a distance.

[Pandora]

How many main stream Muslims do you know.....

Main stream Muslims. Sorry to say. Most have a bad idea about many things. That would shock the hell out of you. Even ones raised here in the States. (yes I know not all Muslims have a bad way of thinking. And follow the teachings the way it should be.) Most would be very happy to see Our Counrty and others like our (free ones) fall. This is a fact. (again ones raised here too)

That statement is based on your personal bias, not fact. Most muslims are overwhelmingly peaceful, just like christians and catholics. Living in NYC right after 9/11, I spoke to several muslims and they were Appalled at what happened and denounced the acts.

However, this thread is not about muslims, it's about immigration.

[Stymie]

Bias, that is funny.

If I was..

Why would I point out that not all.

Do some digging.

I have spent lots of time with Muslims growing up.

There are reports about this too.

All 3 religions you named

Have killed for what they thought was right.

Does not mean it is.

It's ok I didn't forget what we were talking about.

I just added something, just as you did.

But its ok I understand...

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Like i pointed out before (and hunhee also) no one is "native" to this land from the very long view. We all came from a separate landmass altogether. It just sort of a situation were we pick a point in history that suits the conversation and call that "when the natives where here." or "what counts as a native." There are other ways to claim ownership, but this one here i think is not relevant to modern immigration. It might be, but I'm doubtful. From a legal sense maybe, but typically thats not the argument, usually the argument is some sort of inherent "right to have/be" irregardless of the law.

Who in the end has the inherent or some sort of strict universal-justice type right to something, unfortunately in a practical sense, ends up being irrelevant. In some sense a "might makes the 'rights'" case tends to always win. Note the quotes around "right". It really is a case of having the power to enforce your own rules. That's how its always been done and is still done, and will i think probably always be done in one way or another. Its a power issue. Hopefully its enlightened use of power, and not abuse of power, but it always comes down to the "might and will" to make something happen.

If you CAN enforce your rules and have the will to do so, that becomes the law of the land. Not necessarily any inherent basic universal underlying truth argument. Do you want to enforce your (collective) rules? Do you have the power to do so? If both of these things connect, then it becomes reality.

So the two overall answers seem to be, to the initial topic of illegal immigration:

1. Let them stay, and come when they want, national borders should be fairly irrelevant and/or any harm this may cause is negligible.

Or

2. Get them out now (or otherwise punish them in some way) and don't let any more in, nor let the existing immigration rules slide regardless if they seem difficult or not.

[Rayne]

Actually even the "native" americans weren't really NATIVE to America either.. They came via land bridge (SO many years ago), so yes, they were immigrants too at one time. I don't believe anyone is an actual NATIVE to this piece of property we call home...

The only difference between the native indians, and those of us now is .. they believed they belonged to the land (the land owned them).. whereas we believe that land is owned/ownable..

We have no proof where the Native American's came from other than here.

There are several theories, but no one knows for sure.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Um... Might want to recheck that. With global warming and all.. glaciers are melting. We have DNA popping up out fo the ice. And cloths. And baskets. And Shit. And tools.

And proof that they came across the Bearing Straights because WE FOUND THIER STUFF and DNA.

[hunhee]

Um... Might want to recheck that. With global warming and all.. glaciers are melting. We have DNA popping up out fo the ice. And cloths. And baskets. And Shit. And tools.

And proof that they came across the Bearing Straights because WE FOUND THIER STUFF and DNA.

Thank you Gaf.

[Rev.Reverence]

Um... Might want to recheck that. With global warming and all.. glaciers are melting. We have DNA popping up out fo the ice. And cloths. And baskets. And Shit. And tools.

And proof that they came across the Bearing Straights because WE FOUND THIER STUFF and DNA.

Also, by boat...

..a thing called the 'kelp highway', Google it, it is fascinating.....

[Michiko_Dreads]

And Americans don't cut corners? Welfare fraud is a big way many Americans cut corners. Among other nasty things we do.

I fuqqn AGREE. I know too many people who do welfare fraud. The shit is fuqqn wrong and some people turn the other cheek on "Americans" but since 'illegal' immigrants get walfare people are all up in arms but they fuqqn need it they struggle hard ass hell and me personally believes if you actually need it you need it. me personally I agree everyone who is on walfare who dont need it should be rounded up and fuqqn shoot them. If you need it you need it. No matter what your citizen status is.

[phee]

Um... Might want to recheck that. With global warming and all.. glaciers are melting. We have DNA popping up out fo the ice. And cloths. And baskets. And Shit. And tools.

And proof that they came across the Bearing Straights because WE FOUND THIER STUFF and DNA.

This is true with the exception of the remains they have found that predate the icebridge... so while it is clear that most did come from the icebridge, some were in the Americas before hand.

Read about it here

and

here

[Rev.Reverence]

This is true with the exception of the remains they have found that predate the icebridge... so while it is clear that most did come from the icebridge, some were in the Americas before hand.

Read about it here

and

here

AND ..............THEY USED BOATS<--like I said!

[odims_sphere]

Interesting term native american

native (comparative more native, superlative most native)

Positive

native

Comparative

more native

Superlative

most native

1. Belonging to one by birth.

This is my native land.

English is not my native language.

I need a volunteer native New Yorker for my next joke…

and

Noun

Singular

American

Plural

Americans

American (plural Americans)

1. An inhabitant of the Americas. More often this is specified as either North American, Central American or South American.

2. A person born in, or a citizen of, the United States of America.

3. (rare) The English language as spoken in the USA; American English.

* 1942, We sat down in the central square and drank coffee and a man came up and spoke to us in American. — Rebecca West, Black Lamb and Grey Falcon (Canongate 2006, p. 756)

In the literal, most of us are in fact Native Americans. what difference is it where our great-great-great-whatever came from?

Edited May 14, 2008 by odims_sphere

[~Tszura~]

Compassion should be the guiding force behind this argument.

absolutely!

We were all once immigrants... we may not have dubbed them "illegal" at that time, but to think that this country was founded by men who didn't rightfully own the land, and we sit here now telling people they have no right to be here.. it's sad..

A lot of these illegal immigrants do try to become legal immigrants.. unfortunately it takes YEARS for this process to take effect, where they can't work.. who here can afford to live here and not have a job while they wait for the legal process to take effect? I would venture to guess NONE of us..

As we all know how quickly our governmental processes work for those who have no power/control, hunhee is right, it does take years for an applicants petition for citizenship to even come up. I've known people where it has taken 15 plus years to just get their foot in the door. When contemplating issues like this, I always try to put myself on the other side. When you have no money, no food, three pieces of wood for a house, and absolutely no prospects of a future in your country, the allure of America becomes great. Would I wait 15 years to do it legally, or try to cross that border any way that I could to feed my children, and provide the possibility of something more? Well, I guarantee you my butt's swimming, catapulting, hiding under a car, or in someone's suitcase to cross that border for work versus starving to death!

I realize that illegal immigration puts one heck of a strain on our economy, and that there are a lot of things that happen that are not fair. The issues revolving around our economy seem to include healthcare costs, public assistance, taxes, and taking jobs away. I don't have any figures, but illegal immigrants are not the only ones taking advantage of our public assistance, and healthcare. I am painfully reminded of the MANY American scam artists that took advantage of people's good will when the Katirna disaster first hit. I don't recall any illegal immigrant gettings busted for taking free housing, food, and other item becasue they said they were affected by Katrina when they really were not. With taxes, I wish they could pay taxes, and I'm sure they do too, as they would also be able to reap the benefits. And finally, with jobs, instead of getting mad at people who want a better life and will take any job they can get, why not be mad at the employers who would downsize or get rid of a more expensive work force to replace them with cheap labor? We should petition and expose the employers for issues like this.

If you CAN enforce your rules and have the will to do so, that becomes the law of the land. Not necessarily any inherent basic universal underlying truth argument. Do you want to enforce your (collective) rules? Do you have the power to do so? If both of these things connect, then it becomes reality.

So the two overall answers seem to be, to the initial topic of illegal immigration:

1. Let them stay, and come when they want, national borders should be fairly irrelevant and/or any harm this may cause is negligible.

Or

2. Get them out now (or otherwise punish them in some way) and don't let any more in, nor let the existing immigration rules slide regardless if they seem difficult or not.

We are all working within some form of societal structure which includes law, and I do agree that we need immigration laws for our safety. I agree, but I also understand the other side. If we want to stop illegal immigration, then we need to quicken the application process. Having it take 15 plus years is not good enough, and will only encourge continued illegal immigration. We need to streamline, and improve the process. Instead of spending billions on policing the borders, and using high tech arial equipment, that money could be better spent on instituting an improved immigration process. Has brute force ever really solved anything anyway? People will always find a way around it.

For a peek at Bush's current reforms, click here

For me this plan is merely a jumping off point, and needs much tweaking.

Notice the "Temporary Worker" progam from Bush's reforms. "To relieve pressure on the border and provide a lawful way to meet the needs of our economy, the proposal creates a temporary worker program to fill jobs Americans are not doing. To ensure this program is truly "temporary," workers will be limited to three two-year terms, with at least a year spent outside the United States between each term." Who's using who here? And some of the beefing up of our security seems more like we're trying to protect ourselves from killer zombies, as opposed to people who just want a shot at a better life.

***Did you hear that?.....Did.....did...did someone just say "BRAAAIIIINNSSS!" ?*** lol

[Reaper]

Simple deportation. My family earned their way into this country many years ago and came legally. Others should do this as natural cause. If this country says there is no room right now, you have to wait.

Lines were drawn many years ago as was the natural order of claiming land. They were legally input so people could identify the borders and everyone agreed whether they liked it or not to create order. Now that the lines are drawn, people are trying to erase them by saying that we are all on one world. There has to be order or society fails to function at all.

[Hellion]

One factor is we cannot have a population what China and India have which is over 1 billion.there would be no room anywhere for everybody,including ppl that are already citizens.

anyone ever seen the movie Soilent Green?

Edited May 14, 2008 by Darque Metallion

[Oh_My_Goth]

Simple deportation. My family earned their way into this country many years ago and came legally. Others should do this as natural cause. If this country says there is no room right now, you have to wait.

Lines were drawn many years ago as was the natural order of claiming land. They were legally input so people could identify the borders and everyone agreed whether they liked it or not to create order. Now that the lines are drawn, people are trying to erase them by saying that we are all on one world. There has to be order or society fails to function at all.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Stymie]

Not all places take 5 years or more or what ever.

I read and seen reports where it does take 6ms to a 1.5, and even heard from people.

It's called ""patience.""

Stop to think why!

It takes a lot longer...

For some people (say people from Mexico)

The Offices have more paper work then people....

Everyone "Almost the whole fucking country" wants to jump here!

Sorry your place is not the greatest.

Hmm Idea...

Help make it better!

Do what it takes to take out the drug lords or whatever...

Stop running and making more probz else were!

I know people from Mexico can do great things.

One is Mexico City, Said to be a lake.

That man turned into a very big city.

These people have less tools.

Then ones living in Mexico now.

How about not paying a person help you cross to the US.

That goes for around 4k or so (In US funds and this is a fact!)

Use it to feed your family...

Most are kicked back to their home land anyways...

Making that 4k meaning zero!

How can you do that to your family....

Or running with your kids in heat that kills adults...

How can you live with yourself...

Watching your family die.

While running from your crapy life where you were given birth...

Stay home fix what needs to be.

Put your app in to move...

Laws are place to keep people safe. Both peolpe coming here and ones living here.

Still have same prob with the illegals here.

Tooooo many in a small place.

Not making matters better.

The slums just get bigger...

Lets not forget ""MS-13""

Almost all are or have Central America bloodline!(Again Fact)

They bring many many bad things in and out.

(yes again I know not all Central Americas are bad...)

And

If someone has something very bad lets say (Ebola)

They sneak in.

Live with 15 other people...

Then they get more people sick...

It's a bad chain reaction!

Yes, I know Ebola is very rare.

But new diseases are popping up every where.

[Rev.Reverence]

Simple deportation. My family earned their way into this country many years ago and came legally. Others should do this as natural cause. If this country says there is no room right now, you have to wait.

Lines were drawn many years ago as was the natural order of claiming land. They were legally input so people could identify the borders and everyone agreed whether they liked it or not to create order. Now that the lines are drawn, people are trying to erase them by saying that we are all on one world. There has to be order or society fails to function at all.

I wasn't...I long and wait for the beauteous day that it happens..

Till then...I can't really say anything...it's not like anybody wants to listen to me anyway...

[~Tszura~]

I agree that there needs to be rules, but these rules also need to change and adapt to society as it too changes. In Mexico, there are basically two classes of people, the rich, and the poor. Any middle class is almost non-existent. I agree that if we want change, we need to make change. And people do fight for change there, but its dangerous. Years ago I spent three months studying in in Cuernavaca, Mexico, and heard of many instances where people who stood up to the government were either murdered, or came up missing. Mexico is a beautiful place, and it will always be in my heart, but the government there sucks. Poor people have no rights. It's about power, control, and the allocation of resources. A very small percetage of the population there has control over the whole country. People think life sucks here sometimes, but its much worse there.

I'm not saying this is an excuse to open our borders for just anyone to come in at any time. What I'm saying is that I understand why people do it, I don't get mad, and I'd much prefer to work on positive solutions, rather than draw a hard line.